Helmsman 31 - Just shipped to me in Seattle

[Baker]

Not everyone wants to go 8 knots. If you have a planing boat...that planes....you can never have enough power. Those Camano/Helmsmans have pretty nifty hulls that move thru the water easily.

 

[Peter B]

Helmsman has a pretty big analysis of the engine and the power curve, prop pitch, fuel burn, etc. Might still need to be throttled back though at 240hp, but at least it has some reserve power!

You will likely be running the engine way under loaded unless you run 12 knots. And that's going to use a lot of fuel.

Not everyone wants to go 8 knots. If you have a planing boat...that planes....you can never have enough power. Those Camano/Helmsmans have pretty nifty hulls that move thru the water easily.

Precisely, and in any case, I think this paranoia about running larger engines underloaded for periods is somewhat overplayed, as long as they have a good old full power burst from time to time.

 

[markpierce]

Not everyone wants to go 8 knots. If you have a planing boat...that planes....you can never have enough power. Those Camano/Helmsmans have pretty nifty hulls that move thru the water easily.

And you can never have a too large fuel budget.

 

[markpierce]

Precisely, and in any case, I think this paranoia about running larger engines underloaded for periods is somewhat overplayed, as long as they have a good old full power burst from time to time.

My full-power surge achieves hull speed.

 

[markpierce]

If your quest is speed, consider something like this:

 

[BandB]

Precisely, and in any case, I think this paranoia about running larger engines underloaded for periods is somewhat overplayed, as long as they have a good old full power burst from time to time.

Not somewhat, greatly. All the engine manufacturers advise you how to prevent that from being a problem. Typically it's bring up the load for 30 minutes every six hours or something similar.

 

[BandB]

If your quest is speed, consider something like this:

Wifey B: Oh, I like that...yes yes yes.

 

[dhays]

Precisely, and in any case, I think this paranoia about running larger engines underloaded for periods is somewhat overplayed, as long as they have a good old full power burst from time to time.

My understanding is that the newer diesels don't have the same problems with running under loaded like in days gone by.

 

[Peter B]

Not somewhat, greatly. All the engine manufacturers advise you how to prevent that from being a problem. Typically it's bring up the load for 30 minutes every six hours or something similar.

Yeah, I wanted to say that, but thought it might bring a sh*t storm down on my head from all the 'experts'...

 

[Bruce B]

We chose a higher hp version of the engine in our boat...480 vs 380 hp.
The decision was made for a number of reasons:
First obviously was that the boat will have a higher top speed when and if we want it.
Second, after a couple of deliveries totaling some 120 plus miles, I became aware of a harmonic in the 380 hp engined boat. When I described this to the factory, they told me that I was describing the harmonic associated with a 4 blade propeller in an aperture. The fix? A 5 blade propeller although less efficient will alleviate the issue. The 5 blade prop is a good fit with the larger hp engine...
The final reason was that the 480 hp engine get a different transmission and ratio. The lower gearing of 3:1 vs 2.6:1 allows the higher rpm engine and different propeller to work optimally in the range of speeds our boat will operate in.

Finally, we are told that in spite of the lower gearing and 5 blade propeller, the higher power drivetrain gets better fuel mileage than the lower power drivetrain at a given speed.
In other words, we will consume less fuel unless we push to the highest speeds.

We have a number of sea trial spreadsheets of the various combinations that back up the claims so we are hopefull...
Bruce

 

[Baker]

If your quest is speed, consider something like this:

If your quest is speed, consider something like this:

 

[rwidman]

Not somewhat, greatly. All the engine manufacturers advise you how to prevent that from being a problem. Typically it's bring up the load for 30 minutes every six hours or something similar.

OK, fine. It would seem far simpler to match the HP to the boat and its intended use so no extras steps would need to be taken. Many boats this size have a 100 HP or even less engine. Less initial cost, less space, less weight and less fuel burn.

 

[N4061]

Congratulations

Congratulations on the new boat. You will not be disappointed and come to appreciate the high quality the yard delivers. I had the opportunity to go aboard one of the first 31's Scott built and was very impressed with all aspects of the boat including the interior. Enjoy!

John T. - Helmsman 38E
San Diego, Ca.

 

[Hobomack]

OK, fine. It would seem far simpler to match the HP to the boat and its intended use so no extras steps would need to be taken. Many boats this size have a 100 HP or even less engine. Less initial cost, less space, less weight and less fuel burn.

Responding to WesK on behalf of Helmsman Trawlers --

We certainly agree with the "intended use" principle. The original Camano 31, as a rather unique variant of a semi-displacement hull design, performed extremely well through a wide range of speeds while reducing the impeding bow wave effect. The 200 hp engines were capable of operating through this speed range, but if the boat was heavily burdened, or if the hull bottom was slimed even a little then top-end performance would diminish markedly. So we weren't concerned about adding a little horsepower, as Camano did with the 225 hp D-4s at the end of its production run. The Hyundai in its 240 hp version is a nice fit to employ the full speed capability of the Bob Warman hull, while providing a "commercial" continuous full throttle rating. It's a fair statement to say that not everyone wants to run past 7 or 8 knots, and the 31 Sedan makes a fine "displacement speed" trawler too, which is why we offer the lower horsepower option (a Deere 125 at a customer's request in one boat, for instance).

Having sold a lot of Camanos it was always interesting to me that if I'd ask the owners what their "cruising" speeds were I would get different answers -- 6 knots, 7 knots, 8 knots, 10 knots, 12 knots, 13 knots.... There aren't many boats that are identified to operate well through such a wide range of perceived "sweet spots".

In our experience, reinforced by the advice of a major engine manufacturer, the current common-rail electronically-controlled engines in this size range are not prone to "carboning up" from uncombusted fuel because the fuel is metered so precisely to meet the power demand -- the concerns associated with operating a mechanically-controlled diesel at low demand are not applicable to the current generation. I'm not meaning to start a debate -- and there are other strings on TF to address this topic... That is my belief however. And again, because of the precise metering, there is a negligible fuel/speed efficiency loss in operating a higher horsepower engine at slow speeds, compared with a similar but low horsepower engine operating at the same through-the-water speed.

Scott Helker
Helmsman Trawlers

 

[RobH2]

the plan is Naples or Tampa.

We are looking at moving to Tampa. Looks like a nice area.

Beautiful boat!

 

[dhays]

Responding to WesK on behalf of Helmsman Trawlers --

Having sold a lot of Camanos it was always interesting to me that if I'd ask the owners what their "cruising" speeds were I would get different answers -- 6 knots, 7 knots, 8 knots, 10 knots, 12 knots, 13 knots.... There aren't many boats that are identified to operate well through such a wide range of perceived "sweet spots".

In our experience, reinforced by the advice of a major engine manufacturer, the current common-rail electronically-controlled engines in this size range are not prone to "carboning up" from uncombusted fuel because the fuel is metered so precisely to meet the power demand -- the concerns associated with operating a mechanically-controlled diesel at low demand are not applicable to the current generation. I'm not meaning to start a debate -- and there are other strings on TF to address this topic... That is my belief however. And again, because of the precise metering, there is a negligible fuel/speed efficiency loss in operating a higher horsepower engine at slow speeds, compared with a similar but low horsepower engine operating at the same through-the-water speed.

Scott Helker
Helmsman Trawlers

Nice to have you here Scott, very nice boats you have.

I agree that it is interesting and unusual to see a given design being run at such a range of speeds. I would guess that the fuel/speed curve is pretty linear over that range? The original owner of my boat typically ran at 10 knots. Of course, his financial situation was drastically different than mine. I am happy to stick to 7 knots.

I think your explanation on the newer diesels is great. That is my understanding as well, I just can't articulate it.

 

[Tolly Roger]

Responding to WesK on behalf of Helmsman Trawlers --

We certainly agree with the "intended use" principle. The original Camano 31, as a rather unique variant of a semi-displacement hull design, performed extremely well through a wide range of speeds while reducing the impeding bow wave effect. The 200 hp engines were capable of operating through this speed range, but if the boat was heavily burdened, or if the hull bottom was slimed even a little then top-end performance would diminish markedly. So we weren't concerned about adding a little horsepower, as Camano did with the 225 hp D-4s at the end of its production run. The Hyundai in its 240 hp version is a nice fit to employ the full speed capability of the Bob Warman hull, while providing a "commercial" continuous full throttle rating. It's a fair statement to say that not everyone wants to run past 7 or 8 knots, and the 31 Sedan makes a fine "displacement speed" trawler too, which is why we offer the lower horsepower option (a Deere 125 at a customer's request in one boat, for instance).

Having sold a lot of Camanos it was always interesting to me that if I'd ask the owners what their "cruising" speeds were I would get different answers -- 6 knots, 7 knots, 8 knots, 10 knots, 12 knots, 13 knots.... There aren't many boats that are identified to operate well through such a wide range of perceived "sweet spots".

In our experience, reinforced by the advice of a major engine manufacturer, the current common-rail electronically-controlled engines in this size range are not prone to "carboning up" from uncombusted fuel because the fuel is metered so precisely to meet the power demand -- the concerns associated with operating a mechanically-controlled diesel at low demand are not applicable to the current generation. I'm not meaning to start a debate -- and there are other strings on TF to address this topic... That is my belief however. And again, because of the precise metering, there is a negligible fuel/speed efficiency loss in operating a higher horsepower engine at slow speeds, compared with a similar but low horsepower engine operating at the same through-the-water speed.

Scott Helker
Helmsman Trawlers

Excellent post Scott! Great summary.

I will add that my friend with the Hyundai 270 (re-power) continues to be surprised with the fuel economy that he is experiencing (even with running at well over 10 knots) Not exactly an "apples to apples" comparison in boats but I think those engines are proving to be excellent.

 

[Hobomack]

In the interest of full disclosure I will introduce dw8928 (the initiator of this thread) as David White. David, my wife Lisa, and I are business partners and founded Helmsman Trawlers together. David is speaking about his acquisition of a personal Helmsman Trawlers. He knows the yard and its products well, having traveled there many times, and was obviously a principal in our acquisition of the Camano 31 tooling and the re-design and launch of the Helmsman Trawlers 31 Sedan.

Lisa and I have owned and extensively cruised one of our boats. Now David will too. We've been on this journey together with David, though he hasn't been the public face, and are glad to see him and his wife gain first-hand experience as Helmsman Trawlers owners and cruisers!

Scott Helker
Helmsman Trawlers

 

[Bruce B]

Hyundai is a very accomplished manufacturer. Based on my exposure in the automotive world, I'd bet that it will be a great engine. I'd buy one!
As has been said a number of times, nice boat.
I'm sure there is more than a little envy happening here...
Bruce

 

[FlyWright]

Welcome to TF, David and Scott! It's great to have your expertise aboard. From what I've read, I'm very impressed with David's engine choice.

Please keep us posted of the journey, warts and all.

 

[rwidman]

Responding to WesK on behalf of Helmsman Trawlers --

We certainly agree with the "intended use" principle. The original Camano 31, as a rather unique variant of a semi-displacement hull design, performed extremely well through a wide range of speeds while reducing the impeding bow wave effect. The 200 hp engines were capable of operating through this speed range, but if the boat was heavily burdened, or if the hull bottom was slimed even a little then top-end performance would diminish markedly. So we weren't concerned about adding a little horsepower, as Camano did with the 225 hp D-4s at the end of its production run. The Hyundai in its 240 hp version is a nice fit to employ the full speed capability of the Bob Warman hull, while providing a "commercial" continuous full throttle rating. It's a fair statement to say that not everyone wants to run past 7 or 8 knots, and the 31 Sedan makes a fine "displacement speed" trawler too, which is why we offer the lower horsepower option (a Deere 125 at a customer's request in one boat, for instance).

Having sold a lot of Camanos it was always interesting to me that if I'd ask the owners what their "cruising" speeds were I would get different answers -- 6 knots, 7 knots, 8 knots, 10 knots, 12 knots, 13 knots.... There aren't many boats that are identified to operate well through such a wide range of perceived "sweet spots".

In our experience, reinforced by the advice of a major engine manufacturer, the current common-rail electronically-controlled engines in this size range are not prone to "carboning up" from uncombusted fuel because the fuel is metered so precisely to meet the power demand -- the concerns associated with operating a mechanically-controlled diesel at low demand are not applicable to the current generation. I'm not meaning to start a debate -- and there are other strings on TF to address this topic... That is my belief however. And again, because of the precise metering, there is a negligible fuel/speed efficiency loss in operating a higher horsepower engine at slow speeds, compared with a similar but low horsepower engine operating at the same through-the-water speed.

Scott Helker
Helmsman Trawlers

Thank you. I am a Camano owner and my typical cruising speed is 2K RPM which translates to 7 knots over water. I am the second owner and the boat (Volvo TAMD 41P) has over 4K hours on the engine with no issues since I bought it.

It is other people who have voiced the concern with running the engine lightly loaded. I'm not really in a position to know one way or the other.

Yes, the boat will operate fine at a much higher speed but with a disproportionate cost in fuel economy, that's one reason for running at 7 knots. I didn't know that when I first bought the boat but I learned very quickly that if I didn't want to stop at every fuel dock, I had better slow down.


This is the first I've heard that there was an optional engine.

Anyway, best of luck with the new boats, I hope they do well.

 

[eyschulman]

Responding to WesK on behalf of Helmsman Trawlers --

We certainly agree with the "intended use" principle. The original Camano 31, as a rather unique variant of a semi-displacement hull design, performed extremely well through a wide range of speeds while reducing the impeding bow wave effect. The 200 hp engines were capable of operating through this speed range, but if the boat was heavily burdened, or if the hull bottom was slimed even a little then top-end performance would diminish markedly. So we weren't concerned about adding a little horsepower, as Camano did with the 225 hp D-4s at the end of its production run. The Hyundai in its 240 hp version is a nice fit to employ the full speed capability of the Bob Warman hull, while providing a "commercial" continuous full throttle rating. It's a fair statement to say that not everyone wants to run past 7 or 8 knots, and the 31 Sedan makes a fine "displacement speed" trawler too, which is why we offer the lower horsepower option (a Deere 125 at a customer's request in one boat, for instance).

Having sold a lot of Camanos it was always interesting to me that if I'd ask the owners what their "cruising" speeds were I would get different answers -- 6 knots, 7 knots, 8 knots, 10 knots, 12 knots, 13 knots.... There aren't many boats that are identified to operate well through such a wide range of perceived "sweet spots".

In our experience, reinforced by the advice of a major engine manufacturer, the current common-rail electronically-controlled engines in this size range are not prone to "carboning up" from uncombusted fuel because the fuel is metered so precisely to meet the power demand -- the concerns associated with operating a mechanically-controlled diesel at low demand are not applicable to the current generation. I'm not meaning to start a debate -- and there are other strings on TF to address this topic... That is my belief however. And again, because of the precise metering, there is a negligible fuel/speed efficiency loss in operating a higher horsepower engine at slow speeds, compared with a similar but low horsepower engine operating at the same through-the-water speed.

Scott Helker
Helmsman Trawlers

I back up what's above with the experience on my boat also designed to travel at multiple sweet spots. The common rail engines I have adjusts to the load with no smoke or strain and running at or below hull speed and at lower loads will only prolong the engine life. I do try to increase load at the end of a run but it probably is not necessary. The multiple sweet spot option is very useful for the area I cruise in ,PNW where small hops from port to port are done below hull speed 8-9K and higher speeds are for crossing straights and dealing with rapids or tight time schedules. I would not wish to go back to a cruising boat with a 7 or 8K upper limit much to confining. If I had to cross oceans or big water I would look at sail or motor sail maybe multi hull but for coastal and inland use a sliding speed ability of 6K to 16K seems just right.

 

[dhays]

In the interest of full disclosure I will introduce dw8928 (the initiator of this thread) as David White. David, my wife Lisa, and I are business partners and founded Helmsman Trawlers together. David is speaking about his acquisition of a personal Helmsman Trawlers. He knows the yard and its products well, having traveled there many times, and was obviously a principal in our acquisition of the Camano 31 tooling and the re-design and launch of the Helmsman Trawlers 31 Sedan.

Lisa and I have owned and extensively cruised one of our boats. Now David will too. We've been on this journey together with David, though he hasn't been the public face, and are glad to see him and his wife gain first-hand experience as Helmsman Trawlers owners and cruisers!

Scott Helker
Helmsman Trawlers

I appreciate your letting us know about your and David's relationship with Helmsman. As you may have noted in other threads, folks here at TF get really worked up when there are undisclosed interests in the products and services discussed.

As I said, it is great to have you here. Consider a commercial account.

 

[koliver]

Thank you. I am a Camano owner and my typical cruising speed is 2K RPM which translates to 7 knots over water. I am the second owner and the boat (Volvo TAMD 41P) has over 4K hours on the engine with no issues since I bought it.

It is other people who have voiced the concern with running the engine lightly loaded. I'm not really in a position to know one way or the other.

Yes, the boat will operate fine at a much higher speed but with a disproportionate cost in fuel economy, that's one reason for running at 7 knots. I didn't know that when I first bought the boat but I learned very quickly that if I didn't want to stop at every fuel dock, I had better slow down.


This is the first I've heard that there was an optional engine.

Anyway, best of luck with the new boats, I hope they do well.

Wes

As you know, I have the TAMD41s too. I also run lightly loaded most of the time, at 2000 to 2100 rpm, 8 to 8.2 knots, at which speed I get 2 mpg. This is one knot faster and .5 mpg better than the original TMD40s I used to have in this boat. 3200 hrs and counting with no issues.

 

[dw8928]

Now that's a Florida boat! Course I used to have a Donzi moored next to me on Lake Union - Seattle.

If your quest is speed, consider something like this:

 

[Nomad Willy]

Responding to WesK on behalf of Helmsman Trawlers --

We certainly agree with the "intended use" principle. The original Camano 31, as a rather unique variant of a semi-displacement hull design, performed extremely well through a wide range of speeds while reducing the impeding bow wave effect. The 200 hp engines were capable of operating through this speed range, but if the boat was heavily burdened, or if the hull bottom was slimed even a little then top-end performance would diminish markedly. So we weren't concerned about adding a little horsepower, as Camano did with the 225 hp D-4s at the end of its production run. The Hyundai in its 240 hp version is a nice fit to employ the full speed capability of the Bob Warman hull, while providing a "commercial" continuous full throttle rating. It's a fair statement to say that not everyone wants to run past 7 or 8 knots, and the 31 Sedan makes a fine "displacement speed" trawler too, which is why we offer the lower horsepower option (a Deere 125 at a customer's request in one boat, for instance).

Having sold a lot of Camanos it was always interesting to me that if I'd ask the owners what their "cruising" speeds were I would get different answers -- 6 knots, 7 knots, 8 knots, 10 knots, 12 knots, 13 knots.... There aren't many boats that are identified to operate well through such a wide range of perceived "sweet spots".

In our experience, reinforced by the advice of a major engine manufacturer, the current common-rail electronically-controlled engines in this size range are not prone to "carboning up" from uncombusted fuel because the fuel is metered so precisely to meet the power demand -- the concerns associated with operating a mechanically-controlled diesel at low demand are not applicable to the current generation. I'm not meaning to start a debate -- and there are other strings on TF to address this topic... That is my belief however. And again, because of the precise metering, there is a negligible fuel/speed efficiency loss in operating a higher horsepower engine at slow speeds, compared with a similar but low horsepower engine operating at the same through-the-water speed.

Scott Helker
Helmsman Trawlers

Scott,
I suspect that the reason the H31 is capable over a wide speed range is light weight. How does the 31 compare w a NT32? Or another comparable boat.

 

[rwidman]

Wes

As you know, I have the TAMD41s too. I also run lightly loaded most of the time, at 2000 to 2100 rpm, 8 to 8.2 knots, at which speed I get 2 mpg. This is one knot faster and .5 mpg better than the original TMD40s I used to have in this boat. 3200 hrs and counting with no issues.

When I first got my boat, I averaged around 4 GPH. Once I figured out the hull speed thing, it dropped dramatically. Over the 1200 hours I have put on the boat, I get 1.97 GPH and that includes the time I was getting 4 GPH.

We enjoy cruising along watching the sights and the wildlife. If I wanted to get somewhere fast I would drive or fly.

 

[BandB]

We enjoy cruising along watching the sights and the wildlife. If I wanted to get somewhere fast I would drive or fly.

I always enjoy that comment as it's regularly made. We also enjoy the sights, but apparently our eyes still work at speeds higher than others. You can't see sights at 10 knots? 12 knots? 15 knots?

Plus as one cruises off shore a few miles then I don't see how the inability to watch the sights and wildlife comes into play as much.

We love the sights. We explore and watch them. It doesn't require us cruising at 6-8 knots however.

 

[eyschulman]

For the individuals who say they don't want to travel at speeds above 7-8K I say that's fine ,but if you did have a sliding speed range boat I believe you would find more than a few times when you would trade the speed for the fuel. All modern automobiles have a wide speed range and for sure many with excessive power and there are times when it comes in handy. If given the option in a new build boat of fixed speed of 7K or a sliding scale of 7-14K with a small $ difference for the larger motor I think most would take the later option. Why not?

 

[porman]

I agree with eyschulman. There are times when I'll gladly give up economical running to beat or get out of bad weather, especially when crossing the Strait of Georgia or Juan de Fuca. To WesK, we put 1800 hours on our Camano and averaged about 2 GPH.