H46 Our Next Journey

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Back up Power

A little more about back up power and our options. While twin engines offer the best option for our planned use the new H46 is designed for a single with a nice keel and rudder centerline. This limits our selection to either a PTO using the generator or a wing engine (been there before). I don't have any experience with a PTO but in talking with a KK representative who sells this configuration often its not cheap and requires some work. Since there is never a good time to loose your main engine this option is not on the top of my list. Then we have the wing engine option which offers a great balance and based on real life experiences is a real option.

Any thoughts?
 
I think you need N4061 back!
 
If it's not practical to do twins, I would probably just stick with a single engine. You aren't crossing an ocean, so won't die if you break down. That's where you really need a backup.


The problem with a wing is that it will never get used unless it's also used to power hydraulics, and I'm guessing your boat won't have hydraulics other than stabilizers. I had to make a conscious effort to run ours, and still only accumulated 20 hrs over 4 years. It all just seemed such a waste, and with so little run time I never developed confidence that the engine would carry us for any long emergency distance. Plus, the more an engine sits, the more likely it is to have issues when you go to use it.


And the problem with an hydraulic or electric drive using the generator as the power source is a fundamental miss-match in the power requires of propulsion vs electric generation. Our wing was 80 hp and drove teh boat 5 kts which I think is a good target for a get-home. If you get down to 3 kts, I think it starts to become questionable whether you will make progress under adverse conditions. If you translate that 80 propulsion requirement into genset sizing, you are looking at a 60kw generator. That will give you power for the emergency propulsion you will likely never use, and will massively under load the generator all the time you do use it generating electricity.


Personally I would put the energy and money into a superior fuel system, spares, tools, training, and a good sat phone or two.
 
Power Options

TT, your post was perfect and I agree with everything you wrote. My issue is that I'm less mechanically skilled then you are and don't feel comfortable fixing anything significant myself so its twins or the wing engine. As you pointed out our Yanmar wouldn't push our N40's beyond 4-5 knots on a good day. We did use it once in a crowded harbor and it saved our butts so I guess you can argue its good enough. Thanks
 
Nordhavn “floated” the idea of twin Beta engines, instead of a main with wing, on a couple of recent postings to the Nordhavn Dreamers group. The idea has merit and is worthy of consideration for your next build...if you must have 2 engines. I subscribe to what TT posted in that it is unnecessary for coastal use.

1. You have to use the wing to keep it functional and have confidence in it’s use. We use it, but it is an extra thing to do.

2. The wing propeller is not optimal due to its folding type and off-center location. This affects steering and maneuvering.

3. The wing uses a different propeller, shaft seal, different filters, additional zincs, spare parts, etc. and is completely different than the main and generator as far as maintenance is concerned (e.g. heat exchanger cleaning).

Twin Betas, or other small mains, alleviate the wing’s downfalls. Two rudders. It gets used frequently. Handling on one engine will be better than a wing only, with a full-size “normal” propeller close to a rudder. Same maintenance and spare parts.

There may be a price advantage as well. Would be interesting to explore on the H46, if H can accommodate.
 
Engine Room

I'm going to try and focus on one general topic related to this future build before moving onto the next topic so that we can collect input from everyone and make the best decisions possibly. Hopefully some TF followers will enjoy providing their input on this new build and seeing the end product.

Back to the engine room. Someone asked me if this boat would have an ER door and my answer was "I wouldn't build a boat without one". If you followed our original thread on H38E you will understand why. So this aspect of the boat doesn't require any more discussion. We are waiting for the final ER height dimensions from Scott and shoulder width between the single main engine and fuel tanks. We insist on good access to the engine on our boats and have been very pleased with the H38E. That boat offers one of best ER access we have seen on any boat under 40'. More to follow soon....
 
N4061 said:
TT, your post was perfect and I agree with everything you wrote. My issue is that I'm less mechanically skilled then you are and don't feel comfortable fixing anything significant myself so its twins or the wing engine. As you pointed out our Yanmar wouldn't push our N40's beyond 4-5 knots on a good day. We did use it once in a crowded harbor and it saved our butts so I guess you can argue its good enough. Thanks
Click to expand...


I that case, I'd lean heavily towards twins. I think a wing is as much a liability as an asset unless it's run regularly for some useful purpose.
 
twistedtree said:
I that case, I'd lean heavily towards twins. I think a wing is as much a liability as an asset unless it's run regularly for some useful purpose.
Click to expand...

While not a customer for this type boat, I have over time formed an opinion on two equals versus one full size and one small. We first faced this on generators on a boat. The question was to have an equal backup or have a smaller to get by in emergencies if the main one was out of service. The savings of going smaller were so minimal and the compromise on it's use so significant. We would have had it but in the time we owned that boat never would have used it. Instead with full time generator usage, we had two with moderate hours instead of one with very high hours.

That brings me to twins vs. single with wing. The cost savings isn't enough to swing the decision and the inadequacy of the wing if pressed into service would be an issue. Oh yes, if the main went our when you were on the ICW and no wind, current, not even a ripple. But then that's a time you could easily get a tow. If you're going to lose an engine or drive it just seems to me it's going to happen at the worst possible time and then 4-5 knots turns to 1-2 knots or 0 knots and just a fight to maintain direction. Even 300 nm, a normal two day trip suddenly becomes 4 or 6 days. If you want to save fuel you can only use one engine or use both gently. Twins gives you flexibility but the comfort that either could still power you at a decent speed.

Wing is a bit like a spare tire. Do your spares all have the right amount of air in them? I'll be honest, I have never looked at any of our spare tires. I'm not even sure where a couple of them are located. However, on land, I can take all the time I need to, I can call for help, I can look in the manual. Not the same as floating around in the middle of the ocean 300 nm from land.
 
ER

Thanks to everyone for your inputs on propulsion options and recommendations. I'm still working this with Scott who offered up a unique option which we are evaluating. This is one of the benefits working with Scott, he is not afraid to explore options and works well with buyers on solutions to their needs. Remember when we built H38E we collaborated on the new deck mild which was fun (for me).

Another item in the ER we wanted to confirm would be similar to our H38E was the removable floor panels. These are in my opinion the only option for a real engine room. They provide the perfect balance of brightness (they are white), cleanliness and accessibility. I don't think I could back to a molded floor in the ER. While some will say I'm a fanatic with the ER I will admit if it's not shiny white it's not for me. I likely spend as much time keeping the ER spotless as most people spend using their boats. Yes, it's a sickness. ?
 
Just a side note:
My good friend just crossed the Panama Canal in his Helmsman 38.
He's taken it on its own bottom from Alaska to the Canal.
Working his way to the States for the Great Loop.
 
Tunajoe said:
Just a side note:
My good friend just crossed the Panama Canal in his Helmsman 38.
He's taken it on its own bottom from Alaska to the Canal.
Working his way to the States for the Great Loop.
Click to expand...

Has he hinged his arch/electronics tower so it will fold down or is this something he intends to do on the East Coast? Or is he intending somehow to step it down? The boat won't clear 19' as set up will it? I know there are many ways of handling it, just wondering if you know what he's done.
 
BandB said:
Has he hinged his arch/electronics tower so it will fold down or is this something he intends to do on the East Coast? Or is he intending somehow to step it down? The boat won't clear 19' as set up will it? I know there are many ways of handling it, just wondering if you know what he's done.
Click to expand...
The Masts and Arches are hinged from the Factory. Easy to lower if needed.
 
John - if you are still unsure about twins or wing, have you considered the twins will provide better maneuvering in tight places and may eliminate the need for a stern thruster.
 
So, what's the latest?
 
Update

We haven't been able to do very much on the new boat the past few weeks due to focusing on the new house. Mary wants to update the exterior which is taking some time but we now have the plans completed and its time to refocus on the boat.

One of the unique characteristics about this new design is its beam at over 16 feet. While I'm just starting my research (yes, that's fun) to factually confirm what I believe, I'll bet a Margarita this boat will have the largest beam to waterline of any boat in its class. Many boaters focus on length when researching their next boat but in my opinion they are leaving money on the table. I'm so passionate about this topic I wrote an article about it which I need to submit to a few magazines.

While this will likely turn out to be another nightmare for Scott we are having fun playing with different layouts just as we did with the H38. Looking forward to focusing on the details the next few months.

Despite the focus on the house and winter weather (yes SD gets rain) we have enjoyed some time aboard Maria Elena and afternoon runs out on the bay. The boat continues to perform beyond expectations and is a joy to run. We only wish we had more time to cast off the dock lines and set a course south for a few days nonstop.

John

John
 
N4061 said:
We haven't been able to do very much on the new boat the past few weeks due to focusing on the new house. Mary wants to update the exterior which is taking some time but we now have the plans completed and its time to refocus on the boat.

One of the unique characteristics about this new design is its beam at over 16 feet. While I'm just starting my research (yes, that's fun) to factually confirm what I believe, I'll bet a Margarita this boat will have the largest beam to waterline of any boat in its class. Many boaters focus on length when researching their next boat but in my opinion they are leaving money on the table. I'm so passionate about this topic I wrote an article about it which I need to submit to a few magazines.

While this will likely turn out to be another nightmare for Scott we are having fun playing with different layouts just as we did with the H38. Looking forward to focusing on the details the next few months.

Despite the focus on the house and winter weather (yes SD gets rain) we have enjoyed some time aboard Maria Elena and afternoon runs out on the bay. The boat continues to perform beyond expectations and is a joy to run. We only wish we had more time to cast off the dock lines and set a course south for a few days nonstop.

John

John
Click to expand...

So what is moving forward on the boat? Design decisions, options etc.?
 
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Update - Electronics

While we have been quiet on TF and focusing on the house the past few weeks it doesn't mean we lost focus on the boat. In between picking out house paint and stone colors, I have been reviewing our likely electronics suite for the new boat. Based on our experience (4 boats) with Furuno we will likely stay with them and select the same units we have on the H38. I'm comfortable with the new touch screen display and have learned to appreciate what it offers. Our plans are to duplicate the entire suite in the PH for redundancy and install a few critical items up on the FB. Next step is obtaining a quote (ouch). The installation this time will likely be done up in Newport Beach near Alcom Marine headquarters due to the amount of Tim required.
 
John, have you considered the DRS 4D NXT? Nice system. My only complaint is longer range settings, open ocean with a swell of 3 ft. And above. Some ghosting of smaller center consoles that are about 25 ft and less, and not much metal on them to reflect. But I had the same thing happen with my previous Simrad solid state Dome. The open array may be do better in this situation. Not sure. With that said, I have found the package to perform as advertised.
 
I'm flabbergasted, after having read the entire H38 thread, that you aren't going to travel the boat to the Eastern ICW to trial your perfect boat on my side of the USA. But then, it seems you enjoy 1/2 your time building and 1/2 your time enjoying. C'est la vie.

If I might ask some questions regarding your 46, such as I see that the brochure mentions a stainless steel skeg... any possibility of keel coolers to help with your desire for KISS & reliability?

You mention a desire for efficient refrigeration which will necessarily have to be large capacity. At what point does it make sense to go with Energy Star appliances? With water hook up they replace a separate ice maker and produce filtered cold drinking water, thus replacing two otherwise separate items. Easily replaced in a day almost anywhere.

Would two engines driving smaller props each protected by skegs provide a shallower draft, and therefore open cruising and anchoring grounds a bit? Also, the boat could, in a pinch, dry out on its own hull and allow changing zinks or cleaning the hull.

Lots of fuel plus open water passages... I know diesels pump more fuel than they use, but the setup for foul diesel given condensation in warmer climes, long periods between fueling plus sketchy fuel sources might argue for a fuel filtration setup that is a bit more robust than average. I'm wondering if you ever saw this setup which uses a Gulf Coast filter (very low-cost filter elements which are literally found everywhere) and a hi flow fuel pump spec'd to filter your tankage in <12hrs. Even if you chose a different filter type, I found the design elegant and food for thought.

Thanks for all of your posts! I really enjoy your process & insights.

Phil
 
Hi N4061,

Really interested to follow this as Ive stumbled across the Helmsman boats and they looks really good - no representation in Europe though but not a big issue.

One thing I don't get on the 46 is the layout, seems very wasteful below decks with quite a small master and three full bathrooms for two cabins.

Im having an email dialogue with Scott about possible changes - id like three cabins and a bigger master and two heads is 100% sufficient I think. I do like the lounge/TV area in the post cabin though, that's a keeper.

Something like this would suit us better - be interested to know your thoughts...

20945-albums825-picture5057.jpg
 
John: I’d consider moving one of the heads back further if you can. In any kind of seaway, the forward motion can make it tough on guests to go down below and use facilities forward of midship. Add a day head?

Have you and Scott talk more about the beam? Our KK42 has a 15’8” beam with a lwl of 39’2”. The wide beam has reduced slip availability in the 45’ range in the 3 marinas we’ve stopped in while in Florida.

What a fun project!
 
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Outfitting

phillysailor said:
I'm flabbergasted, after having read the entire H38 thread, that you aren't going to travel the boat to the Eastern ICW to trial your perfect boat on my side of the USA. But then, it seems you enjoy 1/2 your time building and 1/2 your time enjoying. C'est la vie.

If I might ask some questions regarding your 46, such as I see that the brochure mentions a stainless steel skeg... any possibility of keel coolers to help with your desire for KISS & reliability?

You mention a desire for efficient refrigeration which will necessarily have to be large capacity. At what point does it make sense to go with Energy Star appliances? With water hook up they replace a separate ice maker and produce filtered cold drinking water, thus replacing two otherwise separate items. Easily replaced in a day almost anywhere.

Would two engines driving smaller props each protected by skegs provide a shallower draft, and therefore open cruising and anchoring grounds a bit? Also, the boat could, in a pinch, dry out on its own hull and allow changing zinks or cleaning the hull.

Lots of fuel plus open water passages... I know diesels pump more fuel than they use, but the setup for foul diesel given condensation in warmer climes, long periods between fueling plus sketchy fuel sources might argue for a fuel filtration setup that is a bit more robust than average. I'm wondering if you ever saw this setup which uses a Gulf Coast filter (very low-cost filter elements which are literally found everywhere) and a hi flow fuel pump spec'd to filter your tankage in <12hrs. Even if you chose a different filter type, I found the design elegant and food for thought.

Thanks for all of your posts! I really enjoy your process & insights.

Phil
Click to expand...

Thanks Phil for these great questions, this why I post our builds on TF, to share ideas and help others who may be looking at trawlers. Regarding the steel skeg and keel cooler. We had a dry stack exhaust system on our two Nordhavns which used keel coolers but they were mounted on the hull (if memory serves me correct) not the skeg. They are relatively long and require some real-estate with clean water flow.

Refrigeration is another great question. One thing for sure is no sub-zero energy eating unit like we had on the Nordies. I have no real issues with our exiting brand except defrosting it every three or four months so we will likely do something different.

Twin engines with individual skegs would be great but not possible on the H46 so we need to focus on a wing engine at this time. I'm not a big fan of wing engines but I need something. Remember tho I a boat and no boat is perfect. Fuel polishing system is something wr will add.

Keep the questions coming ad they help me think twice about all options and equipment.

John
 
Tunajoe said:
Just a side note:
My good friend just crossed the Panama Canal in his Helmsman 38.
He's taken it on its own bottom from Alaska to the Canal.
Working his way to the States for the Great Loop.
Click to expand...

Who is this doing The Great Loop via the Panama Canal. I hope to follow their blog from the Canal to the States.
 
Nocanvas said:
Who is this doing The Great Loop via the Panama Canal. I hope to follow their blog from the Canal to the States.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, he doesn't have a blog.
I told him he should do one, but that's not his thing.
He's currently in Key West, FL.
 
Wow... late to the party. I haven’t been on TF as much lately.

Best wishes to John as he goes forward on this. I enjoyed the heck out of reading about his last build and share a similar philosophy of KISS. I had the pleasure in meeting him, wife (and puppy) and also crawling all through his H38 at the boat show. I also understand how ‘stuff’ happens and life changes directions. I’m currently researching sailboats :angel: - having realized over the past few years how much I enjoy and missed sailing. (I know - heresy here). We’ll be looking to sell our boat soon and head that direction in life. Alas... building a new boat isn’t in my financial cards, so I’ll have to live vicariously through John on this one.

John - not sure if I missed it... any thoughts on Solar to reduce Genny time at anchor? I know you were big on the electrical set up - sans genset on your current boat.

Warm regards - dj
 
Nova Cool are what we are currently using and they are working fine. Only thing is they require defrosting which can be an inconvenience but I like their low power consumption.
 
John - getting back to your "get home" research/decision, I am not all that familiar with the specific subject of Parallel Hybrids (like the HybridMaster available from Mastervolt), but would that be a viable option? The more sophisticated units claim to be able to regenerate their own power to run continuously (or add solar/wind generator to the mix).
 
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