Contract Signed / New Build Underway

[BandB]

Oh, wait...thanks...you did answer that, but I missed it in post 208, because I jumped it with the above quote. Sorry about that, but thanks very much for that post. A Manhattan 65 eh..? Great boat. Love it. And now I feel like I really know where you and wifey B are coming from, what experience you have had to call on (clearly considerable), and it makes it much easier to grasp what you say.
Good luck with your great loop trip. I'd love to be able to come over and do that. Ain't going to happen...

When you figure it all out then please explain it all to us. We're just boating crazy.

We are both 200 Ton Masters NC, although no need for the licenses, just done for personal fulfillment and knowledge and we'll keep gathering more knowledge and experience. We love boating of all types although prefer not to go slow and find sailing to be too much work. Since we arrived in Florida late summer 2012 we've covered over 50,000 nm on the water. We feel competent in operating a boat but do not have mechanical skills or interest beyond those basic things necessary to get home. That also separates us from most of you here who have that mechanical knowledge and aptitude. We're definitely not DIY'ers. It also means for long range cruising, regardless of boat, we're going to have someone with us who has those skills we don't.

 

[N4061]

B&B, impressive background. Glade you are on TF. Would like to hear more comments and suggestions during this journey.

John

 

[N4061]

Electronics

Yesterday I spoke with our previous installer of electronics about Simrad and Furuno systems. In the end I think we will stay with Furuno on the new boat. I appreciate everyone's input on this subject. We are still exploring who we will select to perform the installation.

A funny thing happened to us over the weekend that I think will save us some money. We went to the local Verizon store to buy a new phone for Mary and ended up purchasing two wireless speakers that play music from her new phone. While this may not be breaking news for most boaters, we are behind the curve when it comes to the latest technology. I thought if we can download all the music from her phone and move these great sounding speakers around the boat, why spend $5K on Boise Surround Sound system and cut holes everywhere for speakers? At least this will be our going I plan. Has anyone taken a similar path?
John

 

[BandB]

B&B, impressive background. Glade you are on TF. Would like to hear more comments and suggestions during this journey.

John

Just think you're doing it very systematically to get the right boat for you. I don't care what boat one builds or purchases, someone else will think it was a poor choice. However, I don't judge on the basis of what one chooses, but based on the process.

I see people jumping into trying to purchase by skipping the most important step and that is defining their requirements. You can't evaluate against an unknown target.

We very much enjoy looking at and evaluating in our minds various boats just as a hobby. I'm not in the market for a KK or a Nordhavn or a Helmsman but love to look at what each has to offer and compare and also think of what buyer each fits best. Also, finding your process with Helmsman and Waterline interesting. When all is completed, I would love to read a comparison of building the Helmsman vs. building a Nordhavn and the differences in approach.

I love the conversations we have with Mr. Nordhavn fanatic, Oliver, and some of the philosophical things. One of the biggest is to what extent a semi-custom builder such as Helmsman or Nordhavn should offer equipment choices vs. where they should stick to standards. That impacts the entire commissioning process greatly and determines a level of complexity.

And a simple thought. When should a builder say "no?" I heard one builder say they would never say "no" to a customer. I found that rather scary and said back to them, "But you do understand it's your reputation on the line and even your potential liability?"

 

[Diesel Ducker]

Build time is approximately six months.

..

The Diesel Ducks build time is around 3-6 years now - so is 6 month a realistic time line?

Do they have a penalty clause in case of late delivery - it proves the builders commitment and organisation when they commit to this.... I might give the Helmsman a try now.

 

[BandB]

..

The Diesel Ducks build time is around 3-6 years now - so is 6 month a realistic time line?

Do they have a penalty clause in case of late delivery - it proves the builders commitment and organisation when they commit to this.... I might give the Helmsman a try now.

No, Diesel Duck's build time is probably about a year but you wait in line 2 to 5 years before they start yours. Why they don't increase their capacity, I don't know. However, no company will complain about having more demand than they can fill.

 

[Diesel Ducker]

That still makes it 3-6 years, but that wasn't the point - the point was if Helmsman's 6 month build time is realistic and if there's a penalty clause....I didn't want to highjack the thread, so lets move on.

 

[BandB]

My experience does say the build time he's been quoted is reasonable. I don't have the knowledge of Helmsman to know if they'll make it. It's also a responsibility of the buyer to do many things in a timely basis. Even when we had all mechanical and equipment issues specified up front, just things like selection of colors and materials took a lot of time. It seemed like there were hundreds of selections to make. In a way you're making decisions on building a house and furnishing it.

We've had builds that were on schedule every step of the way. However, our latest which is mostly a stock production boat in a high volume factory with very few choices, has been completely unpredictable. More than the build though has been when will they ship it as they try to coordinate so they can send many on one ship. That can mean that one day of build time can turn into two months. Look at Nordhavn as an example. Three boats just arrived a week or so ago in FL. They obviously weren't all three finished on the same day so two of them waited. A day? A week? A month? Six weeks? I have no idea.

So I have learned that shipping becomes a big consideration.

 

[markpierce]

Took six month to complete my Coot, beginning from a fully-constructed hull. Kimley says he's bringing a new Coot for display to Alameda this Spring. That version has a new saloon style as well as accessories more designed for liveaboards. Check their website.

 

[BandB]

Took six month to complete my Coot, beginning from a fully-constructed hull. Kimley says he's bringing a new Coot for display to Alameda this Spring. That version has a new saloon style as well as accessories more designed for liveaboards. Check their website.

That was my point, it only takes six months to build a boat that size. The greatest extra time is getting started or at the end, shipping. Other than that it's the efficiencies of the builder.

Now, have to go look at the website.

 

[IRENE]

John,

I was prepared to install a nice basic system in our last boat. I came across a simple Bluetooth speaker in the store that sounded great, and the Admiral said to give it a try. We enjoyed it so much, that we took it along for our current boat. Installing something more substantial has not been discussed. We move it inside, outside, even take it home. We hear nuances from it that we have never heard before...it's really amazing. We run a Bluetooth dongle from a satellite radio.

Now I was NOT planning to spend 5k - but the lack of drilling, wiring, sealing, and mounting was exactly parallel to your thoughts.

Good Luck

 

[Insequent]

I think Mark is saying 6 months from the date when hull was complete?

Helmsman appears to be a very slick operation, and a nice product. They have to be doing a lot of things right to be able to achieve quoted build time, particularly when some customization is being done.

 

[markpierce]

My Coot about the time of the purchase contract.

sorry, shutterfly and other such sites have now made posting photos impossible/too difficult.

Imagine the Coot in gray paint without a pilothouse roof, doors, and windows.

 

[BandB]

I think Mark is saying 6 months from the date when hull was complete?

Helmsman appears to be a very slick operation, and a nice product. They have to be doing a lot of things right to be able to achieve quoted build time, particularly when some customization is being done.

Thanks for clarifying for me. So a little more than 6 months.

 

[N4061]

Build Time

..

The Diesel Ducks build time is around 3-6 years now - so is 6 month a realistic time line?

Do they have a penalty clause in case of late delivery - it proves the builders commitment and organisation when they commit to this.... I might give the Helmsman a try now.

A word of caution for anyone reading this and thinking about building a new boat with any builder - don't be in a rush or tie anything firm to the quoted schedule. I will write more about this in a future posts since there are so many variables that go into building a new boat it can not be covered with one post. Regarding the Helmsman 38PH we started out with a six month schedule estimate that quickly moved to seven months due to the number of boats ahead us. We signed our contract in early November and currently planning to see the boat in May. This includes about one month for transportation from China.

I believe most established yards have a good feel on how long the process takes and their estimates accurate unless some sales rep is trying to seal a deal by promising something sooner just to satisfy the buyer. A reputable builder should never have to do this. Just remember that any build schedule is just that "a build schedule" and things can go wrong. Delay in receiving a major piece of equipment (engine, generator, ect.) can quickly result in weeks or months delays so you need to be aware.

You will note that I'm tracking our progress weekly and while I do not have a weekly milestone schedule (I could never get one on our Nordies either) I can at least monitor progress with photos and with Scott's visits to the yard. You may recall I recently mentioned that progress had slowed slightly due to focus on the boat ahead of us, I wouldn't have known this without photo's and weekly calls with Scott. Our approach on new builds is to follow progress as best you can so you are not surprised when you get the call that schedule slipped out a month or more. Unfortunately there is not very much you can do about it. Some folks may want to consider legal action but is that stress and cost worth the effort? I don't think so unless the yard was to close down (talk about a nightmare) which is something I hope never occurs for anyone. Your best protection from schedule slides and a complete disaster would be to limit the amount of down payment you put down and not make the final payment until the boat has been placed on the ship and heading home. Another topic of discussion for a future post.

So what do I think Scott would tell you today if you ordered a new 38PH? Suggest you give him a call direct and ask him but my guess would be around seven months if your ordered a boat today. With the increased level of interest he is receiving lately including from the Seattle Boat Show that may grow as he secures new orders.

Much, much more to follow on this subject including something called commissioning and what surprises you may expect with this part of the adventure.

 

[BandB]

I''m anxious to hear your take on commissioning. Getting a boat built in the US you don't face that in the way you do on an import. So, I've never really experienced it except vicariously through some Nordhavn owners.

 

[Diesel Ducker]

ahhhh...interesting subject. Commissioning and quality control goes hand in hand - so if quality control fails then commissioning becomes a problem.
I researched some yards intensively a few years back and commissioning was one of the reoccurring problems..so I backed down.
My research was almost as thorough as yours, except I had decided on the boat before checking the yard....so it was pretty hard to give up the boat when the yard failed the scrutiny...

 

[MYTraveler]

A word of caution for anyone reading this and thinking about building a new boat with any builder - don't be in a rush or tie anything firm to the quoted schedule.

This is really good advice. I made the mistake, after delivery had been delayed for months, of accepting the boat before commissioning was proven (to my satisfaction) to be complete. At that point, I had very little leverage and I am convince that most of the problems that still bug me would have been resolved if I had handled that better. In business, I have never made a similar mistake. But when it comes to emotional stuff like boats, rationality goes out the window. Live and learn.

 

[BandB]

This is really good advice. I made the mistake, after delivery had been delayed for months, of accepting the boat before commissioning was proven (to my satisfaction) to be complete. At that point, I had very little leverage and I am convince that most of the problems that still bug me would have been resolved if I had handled that better. In business, I have never made a similar mistake. But when it comes to emotional stuff like boats, rationality goes out the window. Live and learn.

Don't take ownership or accept until you're completely satisfied or willing to accept it just as it is with no corrections coming. I also am a strong believer in surveys even on new boats and even with builders I trust completely.

You make another great point. Many brilliant business persons make the most serious mistakes on buying and building boats. They have all the skills and knowledge but become blinded completely by the dream. It starts by them failing to do due diligence on the builder and it carries through to taking delivery when it's not ready.

 

[N4061]

Build Time and counting

Today I was taking with Scott about the new build and the potential to have the boat shipped to SD instead of Long Beach which would make life much easier for Mary and I. Its about a 100 mile run between ports and something I would prefer to do with full electronics especially in June when there is a lot of fog or thick marine layer. This lead us to when the boat is expected to arrive and Scott simply said six months from start. I know I mentioned that schedule had quickly moved from six to seven months but I missed the time it takes to process the contract and get the yard started. So, it appears six months is still our planned schedule.

A lot more to follow soon on many topics.

John

 

[N4061]

Contract Changes - Think Twice

If I learned one thing over the years building a few new boats it is to avoid making changes after you have signed on the dotted line. Besides causing disruption to the yard resulting in possibly longer build schedules, many builders charge a premium for change notices. So with all this experience and knowledge behind us what did I do yesterday? Yes, I made our first change.

Fortunately we are not talking about anything major and nothing that should impact schedule based on where we are in the build cycle. I should also add that Scott and the yard have been very accommodating (reference our galley / salon redesign) and I believe the perfect size company to react quickly and accommodate their customers requests.

So what is our first change? We have been talking with Scott since day one about electrical power and how best to manage our needs with a "simpler boat". Since we decided not to have the generator installed at this time (possibly in five years if we make it to the east coast) I have been struggling with what size battery bank we need. I spoke with one former Nordhavn owner who purchased a H38 and took the boat to Alaska more then once without having a generator. He had a nice size battery bank installed and never looked back. The new H38 at the boat show also had a very nice 1,000 Amp hour battery bank positioned on the engine room floor that was really sweat. The yard custom built the rack that held all the batteries together allowing it to be installed in the right location to eliminate the need for ballast. So based on our projected use of the boat I told Scott to go ahead and plan on doing the same for our boat.

No sooner was I getting ready to take out the check book and Scott started to talk about how we get the batteries to the boat and possibly save me some costs. He wants to explore having the batteries shipped to San Diego when the boat arrives eliminating the need to ship them to China only to have them shipped with the boat. If memory serves me correctly shipping batteries (hazardous materials) is not cheap and why have new batteries purchased six months before you need them. I recall the suite of batteries on one of our new boats were nine months old when we received the boat. I'm not sure how many builders would take the time to explore this type of option to help save us money but I'm glade Scott works this way.

We also decided on the make / model and installation of the Microwave
oven. Hopefully these will be the only "changes" we need to make during this build cycle. More to follow soon......

John T.

 

[N4061]

Music

John,

I was prepared to install a nice basic system in our last boat. I came across a simple Bluetooth speaker in the store that sounded great, and the Admiral said to give it a try. We enjoyed it so much, that we took it along for our current boat. Installing something more substantial has not been discussed. We move it inside, outside, even take it home. We hear nuances from it that we have never heard before...it's really amazing. We run a Bluetooth dongle from a satellite radio.


Good Luck

Thanks for the post and confirming we are on the right track. Yesterday I started to play with downloading music and using the JBL speakers. You were 100% correct on the quality of the sound. We still have a lot to learn about downloading and managing our monthly usage of GB's (or whatever they are called) but I think we are on the right track catching up with the latest cell phone technology. I guess this is another advantage of being involved in boating, it provides you with a reason / need to stay current with todays technologies.

John

 

[N4061]

Labeling - Never Too Much

If there was one item which I found could not be overdone on a boat it is the amount of labeling the yard does on hoses, wire runs, cables, electrical panels and ......

I remember spending hours with Jeff Merrill aboard our first N40 with a label maker marking all the primary systems and fuel transfer valves. I didn't realize back then just how helpful those labels would be in the coming years. I then found the number of labels on the N35 to be even greater and really appreciated them.

I was very pleased to see that the Helmsman line of boats follows a similar practice and provides numerous labels throughout the engine room. For anyone who is talking with a builder about a new boat I would strongly suggest you make this simple item "standard equipment".

John

 

[Donsan]

If there was one item which I found could not be overdone on a boat it is the amount of labeling the yard does on hoses, wire runs, cables, electrical panels and ......

I remember spending hours with Jeff Merrill aboard our first N40 with a label maker marking all the primary systems and fuel transfer valves. I didn't realize back then just how helpful those labels would be in the coming years. I then found the number of labels on the N35 to be even greater and really appreciated them.

I was very pleased to see that the Helmsman line of boats follows a similar practice and provides numerous labels throughout the engine room. For anyone who is talking with a builder about a new boat I would strongly suggest you make this simple item "standard equipment".

I gotta wonder why that isn't an ABYC standard.

 

[BandB]

I think there is some evil force that always adds one light switch in every house that is hooked up to nothing just to drive you crazy trying to figure it out.

 

[N4061]

Battery Power - What do you think?

As most people know we are taking a slightly different path on this boat and not installing a generator at this time. This decision to simplify things obviously resulted in a little more thought process into electrical power management and batteries. Realizing we have the basic's including; main engine with alternator, inverter to provide A/C power and shore power hook-ups while at the dock we have all the electrical power we really need "90% of the time". This leaves the remaining 10% of the time when we are on the hook and dependent on batteries alone.

Scott and I have been discussing different types of batteries, quantity, installation location and even when to have them installed. I found it interesting I'm spending the same amount of time discussing batteries as we did on electronics. While at the Boat Show a few weeks ago, Scott had me look at an installation the yard performed on a new 38PH which included a very nice, five battery bank metal rack located just aft of the engine. It was positioned on the boats center line (smart thinking) providing easy access and eliminating the need for ballast. I walked away impressed with this installation and thought it would be perfect for our boat but still not sure about the added costs and number of batteries. This was going to be a $4K+ option.

Last week Scott called and we discussed one option of having the boat delivered with only the engine start power allowing us to have the batteries of our choice installed in San Diego. I liked the idea of having fresh batteries delivered to the boat during commissioning (one of our previous new build boats was delivered with batteries that were already one year old) and all we would pay for up front was the custom metal rack.

A few days later Scott called back to advise other buyers had expressed interest in our approach of building a new boat without a generator and adding a larger battery bank. Scott, being the forward thinker he is spoke with the yard and decided to make the battery bank metal rack standard equipment on all future boats allowing the owners to add as many batteries as required. This works perfect for us since we can now start with the standard batteries and add as we go.

We are still researching which type of batteries we want to end up and following a couple of Nordhavn owners looking to upgrade their batteries / inverters so they can be less dependent on their generators.

While I cannot speak for other boaters I believe I'm starting to see a trend even with larger boats looking for a path forward to simpler electrical power resources. When you think about technology advancements within the automobile industry (Tesla) related to electrical power (we own two Prius cars) it makes sense boaters should be able to find options over an expensive, maintenance required, fuel burning and noisy generators.

What do you think?

P.S> For those who may have never purchased a boat a ball part price to have a generator installed is about $25K.

John

 

[BandB]

What do you think?

P.S> For those who may have never purchased a boat a ball part price to have a generator installed is about $25K.

John

Two words: Air Conditioning

I think those two words make any push toward eliminating generators very regional.

Refrigeration and freezers are secondary. Also, washers, dryers, dishwashers and hot water.

I think there's long been a desire by some to do without generators and the greater possibilities of solar power make it easier to accomplish. On the other hand there are trends running very counter to eliminating generators, such as using PTO's for thrusters and using Gyro Stabilizers.

For every trend there seems to be a counter. We are going to LED lighting and greatly reducing consumption. Meanwhile we're adding more and more electronics and computer, phone and television (and stereo) equipment, and appliances.

 

[FlyWright]

John, It sounds like your boat would be a great candidate for solar to bridge the gap in power production. Are you considering it as a component to your vessel?

 

[Donsan]

What do you think?

P.S> For those who may have never purchased a boat a ball part price to have a generator installed is about $25K.

As BandB says, air conditioning is a primary driver for the need of a genny. IIRC, you live in Southern California. I have a daughter who lives on the coast around LA and they have had no need for AC in their residences. I don't recall if you even ordered AC with your boat. Not having AC would certainly make it less complex and less costly too. Other appliances like the frig, the freezer, hot water heater, coffee pots and computer equipment are also power hogs.

I guess the question that is going through my mind is the charging profile for all those batteries. Charging them at the dock is no problem but if you are off cruising and staying on the hook, you may find yourself running the engine to top off the batteries. Obviously a high output alternator can help and you could supplement it with solar panels over the pilot house. Another possibility is having a portable gas generator like the Honda 2000. Part of the argument for the genny is to offload the charging function from your less efficient main engine/alternator to a more efficient power generation system.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the profile of how you plan to use the boat. You seem to have quite a history or buying and selling boats. How sellable will you boat be without a genny? In FL, it would probably be a non starter.

Regarding solar panels, it looks like the top of the pilot house is the obvious place to locate them. But, would this create glare when you are using the fly bridge?

 

[N4061]

Batteries - Feedback

Thanks for for feedback and thoughts. To answer a few questions, yes we did option for two reverse cycle A/C / Heater systems. Despite having the boat dock in San Diego (Average year round temperature of 68 degrees) we have noticed a warming trend the past few years with temperatures reaching upper 80's and even low 90's on the water. For those few occasions the A/C is worth having to make the weekend that much more enjoyable. We honestly used the heaters more than A/C out here and find the small portable West Marine heaters work fine in the small rooms. Since we only anchor out about 10% of the time (our life style includes spending most "nights" in a slip) we can handle a few warm days without A/C.

I agree if we move the boat to the east coast we would seriously consider adding the generator for the A/C unless technology catches up and we can do without. I just finished reading an interesting blog by a Nordhavn 52 owner who is slowly circumnavigating the world and added enough battery power (with larger alternators and inverters) to act as his back up generator. He can handle the A/C voltage spikes, 24V galley systems, water maker and scuba tank air compressors. Very interesting and not all that complicated. There is now a N50 owner doing something similar which we plan to follow and learn.

Regarding resale on the west coast i do not see this as an issue. Most people are more concerned with heat and like optional diesel heaters. On the east coast I can see the need for both a generator and A/C.

John