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Old 06-30-2019, 12:26 AM   #101
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BandB,


Your post may have them thinking about possibly making their situation worse. May get more info after their debacle is over.


K
May have....I have asked her as it was actually the wife who posted.
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Old 06-30-2019, 12:29 AM   #102
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Trim tabs would probably help even when not planing, simple to rid you of bow up and leveling it off a bit.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:45 PM   #103
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Serendipity

Just noticed that TT35 Serendipity, either hull #3 or #4, is now for sale on YW.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/201...dard%20listing

That didn't last long. Only 18 engine hours.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:07 PM   #104
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It would be interesting to know why it's being flipped. Love the dark hull.
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:04 PM   #105
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It would be interesting to know why it's being flipped. Love the dark hull.
All you have to do is read this thread to know. It's just like the boat discussed here before all the work on it was done.
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:26 PM   #106
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Its priced about $50k over list price, so maybe there were upgrades done ??
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:51 PM   #107
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Its priced about $50k over list price, so maybe there were upgrades done ??
I think you'd find out that they paid more than the list price that's been shown. They don't tend to keep information current. In fact, you'll find they still have Mz. Trom's recommendation front page.
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:07 AM   #108
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As we discovered during our 2 and 1/2 year build process, the "list price" is meaningless to this builder. We had discussions with him about what was being done on the boat, the builder made it sound like standard features, and over a year later an office worker hands us "change orders" that were not just unexpected but also obscenely priced.


Since our boat was hull #1, I kept wanting to know how they could charge us for "change orders" when there was no previous model to "change" from, and no plans on paper.


Never could get a straight answer.


Hubby doesn't want me to post here what we paid. But I will tell you that it was more than $105,000.00 over the price in our contract.


(This was extortion. As our attorney explained, "The builder knows that he has you in his vise grip, because he already has most of your money. If you refuse to pay for the "change orders," you won't get your boat, you will have to spend $3-5 hundred thousand more on legal fees , wait 3-7 years to see if you might prevail in court, and maybe win your unfinished boat. During that time the builder can declare bankruptcy or have a fire, and then you will have no path to recover your boat, your boat money or your legal fees. It's extortion, plain and simple, and the smartest financial move is to take your boat and get her finished elsewhere.")


And since the day we extracted the boat from Mirage, we have spent an additional $52,000.00 on repairs. The comfort of knowing that she is now safe and seaworthy was worth every dime.


Spirit Song and Serendipity's owners may have simply given up on their boats. I could speculate that the builder's shenanigans may have had something to do with that - it's hard to love a boat when you despise the builder. Then again, perhaps life changed and their boating season was over. For some, boating is just a leisure activity, for others, a source of light for the soul. What I know about both owners is that they are older retired folks who are very nice people.


If it were not for the incredible craftspeople we hired to repair our boat, the ones who took such immense pride in their work toward fixing our boat, we might have given up on our boat. Instead, we were re-inspired.


Somebody should let the broker know how awfully wrong those specs are on the TT35 on yachtworld right now. Hmmm...


Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:44 PM   #109
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All you have to do is read this thread to know. It's just like the boat discussed here before all the work on it was done.
Easy assumption to make. However, I personally think it's reasonable to assume that the builder has improved each model, likely in no small part to Pea & her efforts, as well as other customer complaints which they no doubt have received. I seriously doubt that the problems with the rear cockpit have not been addressed & hopefully the other issues brought to their attention, like substandard wiring, have also been incorporated into the newer models. No company wants bad press.
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:33 PM   #110
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Easy assumption to make. However, I personally think it's reasonable to assume that the builder has improved each model, likely in no small part to Pea & her efforts, as well as other customer complaints which they no doubt have received. I seriously doubt that the problems with the rear cockpit have not been addressed & hopefully the other issues brought to their attention, like substandard wiring, have also been incorporated into the newer models. No company wants bad press.
But #2 finished before her #1 and #3 was nearly finished and #4 well underway. Your argument has more merit if we're talking hull #15, but not on #3.

I can only speak of a couple of the boats other than hers but still early. One of them the buyers missed being able to do the loop as planned due to the boat's late arrival and then health hit. The boat had all the same issues and the boat was put on the used market without them being addressed. Another boat, the buyer trucked to their home knowing there were some issues and once it was there decided to sell it. As far as what issues the buyer addressed or corrected, I don't know.
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:56 PM   #111
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What a disaster this boat is for these people. And itís not a cheap boat! Smh.
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:53 PM   #112
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The continuing existence of Mirage sure proves that Internet forums are powerless. All the negative exposure has not dented their sales a bit or so it seems. I guess this is testimony of the power of the Non-Disclosure Agreement and the value of the services that their attorneys are providing them.

“There’s a sucker born every minute: you just happened to come along at the right time.”
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:05 PM   #113
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What a disaster this boat is for these people. And itís not a cheap boat! Smh.
Having corresponded with Pea it appears that they are actually very happy with the boat now that all the kinks have been ironed out. It's a unique "trailerable trawler" that would be a blast to cruise around in. That being said I don't think I could have survived dealing with this builder.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:05 PM   #114
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Based on the things I have read about this company, I wouldn’t get near them with a 10 ft. Pole. I have been following Mrs. Trombley's posts and glad to hear they have worked things out.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:10 PM   #115
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... All the negative exposure has not dented their sales a bit or so it seems........
The TT35 is a pretty cool concept. Look how well Ranger is doing with their trailerable outboard "trawlers". If they were able to deliver on time and budget I bet they would be up to hull # 15-20.

Here's a quote form an August 2016 article in Boating Magazine:
Hull number one of the TT35 was ordered by a Florida couple, and construction is now underway. Completed models will be on display at fall boat shows, beginning with the 2016 United States Powerboat Show in Annapolis.

In 3 years they've produced only 4 or 5 boats. If they had demo models at boat shows in 2016, and no bad press......I think they'd have sold a lot more.
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Old 07-10-2019, 05:32 PM   #116
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Having corresponded with Pea it appears that they are actually very happy with the boat now that all the kinks have been ironed out. It's a unique "trailerable trawler" that would be a blast to cruise around in. That being said I don't think I could have survived dealing with this builder.

I could not have dealt with this situation with anywhere near the grace and calm that Pea has. I would have lost it and been in never ending litigation, or worse.

I agree that they now have a very cool boat after all their mods, but I doubt most buyers are as Zen as Mrs Trom.
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Old 07-10-2019, 07:07 PM   #117
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With all respect to Miz Trom and I am no way disparaging their purchase and repair, but this story begs for a discussion of how to buy a boat (from a potentially unscrupulous builder). This is what we did in buying billions of dollars of construction equipment for multi, multi million dollar projects. Some of it can be skipped if you have confidence in the builder, like the partial title/lien provision.

First you need to have clear set of specs when you sign a contract. It doesn't need to be silly, but it should list all equipment whether or not standard. Since this builder has a fluid idea of standard you cannot rely on it as the basis.

If the bulder wants progress payments, then the contract should have an initial payment and progress payment linked to clear, observable progress, not time. These might be laying up the hull mold and turning it over, installing the engine, covering the hull with the topsides layup, etc.

Then if you have any concerns about the financial condition (or integrity) of the builder then write in the contract that payment of each progress payment gives you partial title to what is installed. That way if for some reason he doesn't finish you can take possession of what you have paid for, move it to another shop and finish it. Admittedly if the builder renegs before the hull is closed you are in a world of screwed.

Another less draconian way is to secure a lien on what you have paid for so that if he subsequently declares bankruptcy you have a lien on your property and no other creditor can liquidate it to pay his bills.

This later provisions may sound unwieldy but it was routine in all big orders we made with progress payments. Admittedly making it work after a bankruptcy will be tough, but better to have it than just be one of hundreds of creditors waiting in line.

If he won't agree to these sound and proven solutions, then run don't walk away.

I have purchased four brand new boats in my life and I never had to make a progress payment. One builder did go into bankruptcy- Saga Yachts, some years after I purchased mine, but other than maybe a 10% initial payment I never paid another dime until the boat was delivered to the dealer's yard in Annapolis from the factory in Canada. And according to the contract, final payment made it mine.

Anytime a builder wants progress payments is a big, big red flag and it warrants the stringent measures described above. And by all means consult with an attorney before committing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars.

David
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Old 07-10-2019, 08:56 PM   #118
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With all respect to Miz Trom and I am no way disparaging their purchase and repair, but this story begs for a discussion of how to buy a boat (from a potentially unscrupulous builder). This is what we did in buying billions of dollars of construction equipment for multi, multi million dollar projects. Some of it can be skipped if you have confidence in the builder, like the partial title/lien provision.

First you need to have clear set of specs when you sign a contract. It doesn't need to be silly, but it should list all equipment whether or not standard. Since this builder has a fluid idea of standard you cannot rely on it as the basis.

If the bulder wants progress payments, then the contract should have an initial payment and progress payment linked to clear, observable progress, not time. These might be laying up the hull mold and turning it over, installing the engine, covering the hull with the topsides layup, etc.

Then if you have any concerns about the financial condition (or integrity) of the builder then write in the contract that payment of each progress payment gives you partial title to what is installed. That way if for some reason he doesn't finish you can take possession of what you have paid for, move it to another shop and finish it. Admittedly if the builder renegs before the hull is closed you are in a world of screwed.

Another less draconian way is to secure a lien on what you have paid for so that if he subsequently declares bankruptcy you have a lien on your property and no other creditor can liquidate it to pay his bills.

This later provisions may sound unwieldy but it was routine in all big orders we made with progress payments. Admittedly making it work after a bankruptcy will be tough, but better to have it than just be one of hundreds of creditors waiting in line.

If he won't agree to these sound and proven solutions, then run don't walk away.

I have purchased four brand new boats in my life and I never had to make a progress payment. One builder did go into bankruptcy- Saga Yachts, some years after I purchased mine, but other than maybe a 10% initial payment I never paid another dime until the boat was delivered to the dealer's yard in Annapolis from the factory in Canada. And according to the contract, final payment made it mine.

Anytime a builder wants progress payments is a big, big red flag and it warrants the stringent measures described above. And by all means consult with an attorney before committing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars.

David
I wrote in the now deleted thread some advice along the lines you mention and I'll try to remember what I wrote then. However, you can never win with an unscrupulous builder. The best you can do is cut your losses.

One added problem I'd point out. Most builders have some strong supporters, largely among those who have bought used, but never knew what the original buyers went through. Often you'll get the negative stories in private. There's a dilemma web sits face as they don't want to become a place for blasting businesses, but then sometimes by bending over backwards or giving in to threats or dealing with vendor friendly trolls, they fail to illuminate situations. I don't know how Mirage was years ago, but I know GH owners who built and went through similar issues. Miz Trom has published very detailed and factual information and been much kinder than likely merited. She's handled it all with amazing grace. I hate seeing her words used on the site to try to sell TT 35's. The concept is still a great idea.

The good thing is there are hundreds of quality builders and there is no design so unique or so perfect to deal with the others. The bad thing is it can be very difficult to know the good and the bad.
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:36 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
With all respect to Miz Trom and I am no way disparaging their purchase and repair, but this story begs for a discussion of how to buy a boat (from a potentially unscrupulous builder). This is what we did in buying billions of dollars of construction equipment for multi, multi million dollar projects. Some of it can be skipped if you have confidence in the builder, like the partial title/lien provision.

First you need to have clear set of specs when you sign a contract. It doesn't need to be silly, but it should list all equipment whether or not standard. Since this builder has a fluid idea of standard you cannot rely on it as the basis.

If the bulder wants progress payments, then the contract should have an initial payment and progress payment linked to clear, observable progress, not time. These might be laying up the hull mold and turning it over, installing the engine, covering the hull with the topsides layup, etc.

Then if you have any concerns about the financial condition (or integrity) of the builder then write in the contract that payment of each progress payment gives you partial title to what is installed. That way if for some reason he doesn't finish you can take possession of what you have paid for, move it to another shop and finish it. Admittedly if the builder renegs before the hull is closed you are in a world of screwed.

Another less draconian way is to secure a lien on what you have paid for so that if he subsequently declares bankruptcy you have a lien on your property and no other creditor can liquidate it to pay his bills.

This later provisions may sound unwieldy but it was routine in all big orders we made with progress payments. Admittedly making it work after a bankruptcy will be tough, but better to have it than just be one of hundreds of creditors waiting in line.

If he won't agree to these sound and proven solutions, then run don't walk away.

I have purchased four brand new boats in my life and I never had to make a progress payment. One builder did go into bankruptcy- Saga Yachts, some years after I purchased mine, but other than maybe a 10% initial payment I never paid another dime until the boat was delivered to the dealer's yard in Annapolis from the factory in Canada. And according to the contract, final payment made it mine.

Anytime a builder wants progress payments is a big, big red flag and it warrants the stringent measures described above. And by all means consult with an attorney before committing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars.

David

Great tips, and great idea to start a new thread. Perhaps repost this to "boat building contract" thread and we can take it from there? I can probably contribute a few tips as well.
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:43 AM   #120
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The TT35 is a pretty cool concept. Look how well Ranger is doing with their trailerable outboard "trawlers". If they were able to deliver on time and budget I bet they would be up to hull # 15-20.

Here's a quote form an August 2016 article in Boating Magazine:
Hull number one of the TT35 was ordered by a Florida couple, and construction is now underway. Completed models will be on display at fall boat shows, beginning with the 2016 United States Powerboat Show in Annapolis.

In 3 years they've produced only 4 or 5 boats. If they had demo models at boat shows in 2016, and no bad press......I think they'd have sold a lot more.

Having purchased a dealer demo Ranger Tug EC-21 while living in Hawaii and a Great Harbour N37 Trawler (former charter boat) direct from Mirage, I am in a unique position to comment on your post. Without going into detail, I can tell you that Ranger's approach to customer service and support is directly reflected in their sales numbers. They have built hundreds of boats in various models ranging from the EC-21 to their new R-41.

Like many boat builders, Mirage was hit hard by the economic crisis of 2008-2009. Their order book dried up and the last full displacement trawler (an N37 model) from that time period was delivered in 2010. In the nine years since then, they have built and delivered maybe a dozen boats or so, to include one N37, eight TT35s and at least one small flats boat. The sales data has been gleaned from the Great Harbour Trawlers Face Book page and may not reflect all sales of their smaller boats.

In regards to the TT35 and the October 2016 Annapolis Boat Show, Boating Magazine was not alone in reporting that the TT35 would debut there. Various other regional and national boating publications, including Soundings and PassageMaker were reporting the same thing in the summer and fall of 2016. Which is very interesting when you look at what was actually going on at Mirage in late summer of that year. Mirage must have known for quite some time that having a boat ready for the October 13-16, Annapolis Boat Show was not feasible and the following paragraph was posted in their September newsletter:

Great Harbour Trawlers September 2016 Newsletter

TT35 Update

The painstaking process of perfecting the mold tooling for the TT35 is finally over, and within a few weeks we will have hull number one ready for preliminary water testing. Our initial hope was to have the boat ready for public showing at the 2016 Annapolis Powerboat Show. That might still be possible if we were willing to pull some late nights and rush the interior work. Most every boat builder has stories of how they were still adding final details to a new model as it arrived at the show. But that's not us. We like to get things right, and if that means taking a bit more time, so be it. We are still looking at a Fall completion date, but in Florida, and closer to Thanksgiving. Between now and then, the pace will pick up and you'll begin to see more frequent updates on our Facebook page and in the October issue of the newsletter.


Without a doubt, building a brand new 35' trailerable trawler from scratch is a daunting task, but Mirage is not a start-up boat building company. They had four decades of experience building sailboats, sport fishing boats and 57 heavy displacement trawlers prior to starting the TT35 project. Over promising and under delivering is a bad business model for any company and I think that the sales of the TT35 have suffered because of it. Contrast the September 2016 newsletter statement suggesting that Hull #1 would be complete around Thanksgiving with the below FB post with photo, two days before the 2016 Annapolis Boat Show. In fact, it was not until October of 2017 that Mirage trailered Hull #2 (the first boat completed) to that Fall's Annapolis Boat Show and even then the boat was not ready to be delivered to the buyer and had to go back to the Mirage facility after the show for some final punch list items.

October 11, 2016 Great Harbour Trawlers FB Post

IT'S OUT OF THE BARN - We just rolled the molds for the TT35 out of the tooling bay. Inside those big red shells are the hull and the deck plug for hull number one. We'll post more photos as soon as we lift and separate these large parts and get ready to start building boats!
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