Gh74

[Northern Spy]

Well, you said "there is a market." No evidence at all there is. Someone trying to establish one but making some drawings or a design and putting it on a web site isn't evidence of a market. Sales are evidence of a market. You say "if I was in the market for a vessel in this size range" but you're not. This brings us back to the GH74, that the market has shown no interest in it while others in that size range are selling. Good marketing teams subscribe to designing what the consumer will buy.

Who really gives a hoot if there is or isn't a market? The premise of the original post is that it is a likeable design, and wonders if one has been built.

All boats start as a design. I would dare say that most great designers and architects have some fantastic designs that have never been or never will be built.

Not everything needs to be evaluated by a business case. In fact, thank goodness that some boat builders and boat buyers make spectacularly bad business decisions. If they didn't, some great boats and yachts would never exist.

I, for one, am pretty bored by the Chinese copycat design house styling of semi-custom yachts. Getting almost McMansion like.

Pick up a Woodenboat magazine once in a while and be swept away by the romanticism of boats.

End rant. [tongue firmly in cheek] [emoji3]

 

[wannaboat]

Keep buying those lotto tickets!

Every week, my dad always said the odds of winning are 50/50. Either you win or you lose.

 

[JLD]

Every week, my dad always said the odds of winning are 50/50. Either you win or you lose.

Jim

 

[wannaboat]

Wooden Boat is a fabulous magazine and being from New England I've been fortunate enough to see their school, amazing.

 

[MurrayM]

If I were in the market for a 50' plus boat I'd go for a 56' Tad Roberts Passagemaker Lite, which could cross oceans quickly and still sneak through skinny water passages.

The payoff for lighter displacement and a longer waterline is more speed with the same or less power. For example, the Nordhavn 46 crosses oceans at a speed/length ratio of about 1.2, which translates to 7.4 knots. The PL 46 design has a speed/length ratio of 1.2 and travels at 8 knots. And, for the PL 56, it is 8.8 knots. On a long voyage, such as the 2,200 nautical miles from southern California to Hawaii, this can make a difference of days. Two thousand two hundred miles at 7.4 knots is 297 hours, while at 8 knots it is 275 hours, and at 8.8 knots it is 250 hours. The PL 56 would take about two days less than the Nordhavn 46 on the same passage.

Passagemaker Lite 56 - Tad Roberts' fast, seaworthy, fuel-efficient long-range passagemaker

 

[MurrayM]

...Not everything needs to be evaluated by a business case...

 

[BandB]

Good point, but sales numbers do not necessarily mean it's a good design, only that the boat satisfies a small segment of the herd that'll absorb the added cost of *bling* and marketing campaigns into the purchase price.

No, they mean it satisfies a market. No sales means it doesn't satisfy a market.

 

[BandB]

Who really gives a hoot if there is or isn't a market? The premise of the original post is that it is a likeable design, and wonders if one has been built.

All boats start as a design. I would dare say that most great designers and architects have some fantastic designs that have never been or never will be built.

Not everything needs to be evaluated by a business case. In fact, thank goodness that some boat builders and boat buyers make spectacularly bad business decisions. If they didn't, some great boats and yachts would never exist.

I, for one, am pretty bored by the Chinese copycat design house styling of semi-custom yachts. Getting almost McMansion like.

Pick up a Woodenboat magazine once in a while and be swept away by the romanticism of boats.

End rant. [tongue firmly in cheek] [emoji3]

He said there was a market. I said not. I also add there isn't a market for wooden boats. There once was. If you talk market, then you're talking business.

You're right about great designs never seeing the light of day. Some of my greatest ideas haven't. However, we are talking about a business with the objective of selling boats.

We have a desire today for a boat that doesn't exist. It doesn't exist because there's no market for it. If we want to get one, we need to find someone to build it custom for us. Otherwise we need to select from what the market offers. (Actually we have desires for more than one non-existent boat).

I've been on the other end, fully supportive of an idea merchandising presented, thinking they're right on target and almost geniuses, only then to watch a focus group when it's presented to them and out of 20 people, 16 say absolutely no, 3 say mild no's, and 1 loves it. The End for it.

 

[MurrayM]

No, they mean it satisfies a market. No sales means it doesn't satisfy a market.

Respectfully, 'no' back to you...it means they created a need in the market.

Insert photo from helicopter of fat balding middle aged man on flybridge of rocketing *bling* Yacht with two bikini clad models.

 

[sunchaser]

Speaking of unique new design vessels -

The 35Z MJM looks fascinating. So much so that the first 21 are presold. The vessel is designed by Bob Johnstone & Doug Zurn and built in the normal high quality MJM fashion. But, it has twin outboards, 300Hp Verados, yielding something like 1 + nmpg at 35 knots - and a Seakeeper to boot!

Good design, efficiency and a strong following sells well. MJMs are legendary and built in the wonderful New England tradition. BTW, Zurn designed the latest Duffy, a diesel powered cruiser in the mid 50' range that like other Zurn designs achieves speed and efficiency.

 

[Northern Spy]

Doug Zurn turns out great designs.

 

[sunchaser]

Doug Zurn turns out great designs.

I well remember you saying the same a few years ago. Spot on.

 

[Rufus]

During August looper weeks on Lake Michigan we occasionally end up with a transient 37 in the adjacent slip. It's like having a two story fiberglass wall erected next door. Blocks out the sun. About as much visual appeal as a warehouse or apartment building. Fancy houseboat. Ugh.

 

[sunchaser]

During August looper weeks on Lake Michigan we occasionally end up with a transient 37 in the adjacent slip. It's like having a two story fiberglass wall erected next door. Blocks out the sun. About as much visual appeal as a warehouse or apartment building. Fancy houseboat. Ugh.

I note what you say Rufus, but what kind of ugly (they all are to somebody) boat do you have that we can rail at?

 

[Rufus]

I note what you say Rufus, but what kind of ugly (they all are to somebody) boat do you have that we can rail at?

Rail away... (Note the lack of canvas enclosures)

 

[BandB]

Rail away... (Note the lack of canvas enclosures)

View attachment 72508

So a one season boat? Actually I'll never rail on someone else's choice of boats, not the fat man's blingy boat with bikini babes or the dullest old boat. They are all a matter of taste. Yours looks very nice.

 

[sunchaser]

Rail away... (Note the lack of canvas enclosures)

View attachment 72508

Nice boat for dry warm weather Rufus, but not quite as interesting to many as a GH, as evidenced by this thread.

 

[MurrayM]

On the topic of sales as a measure of value...was Andy Warhol a great artist, or was he a great marketer who's work is artificially inflated? I'll go with the second option

https://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2011/05/contemporary_art_sales

 

[wannaboat]

Pretty boat Rufus, sadly it looks like every other boat in the marina.

 

[wannaboat]

So a one season boat? Actually I'll never rail on someone else's choice of boats, not the fat man's blingy boat with bikini babes or the dullest old boat. They are all a matter of taste. Yours looks very nice.

I want bikini babes ?

 

[Woodland Hills]

On the topic of sales as a measure of value...was Andy Warhol a great artist, or was he a great marketer who's work is artificially inflated? I'll go with the second option

https://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2011/05/contemporary_art_sales

But does it matter? The value is still there, his prices at auction are going up, not down. If you own a Wharhol because you thought it was a good investment, it is! And if you own one because the artistic statement speaks to you then it does! Everyone wins.......

 

[Donsan]

Build it and they will come???

 

[MurrayM]

But does it matter? The value is still there, his prices at auction are going up, not down. If you own a Wharhol because you thought it was a good investment, it is! And if you own one because the artistic statement speaks to you then it does! Everyone wins.......

Yup, it matters to me. I was in art school in the early eighties and didn’t like what happened in the art world when stock market investors entered the scene. It changed things for the worse, in my opinion.

In Warhol’s case a couple investors started bidding wars to artificially drive up prices, putting an inflated “value” on the work which they could cash in on later. Aren’t there rules against that sort of thing in the stock market? What makes it illegal one place and acceptable in another?

 

[Woodland Hills]

Nice anecdote about the old days of the art business, but it doesn't have anything to do with the current value of his work. If the value was simply from being "pumped" forty years ago, it would have crashed long ago. If your point is that the art world is a cut throat place with ethical standards lower than most bankers, so what else is new......

I wonder if the kids in art school in Florence resented what happened when those greedy Medicis entered the scene and changed things for the worse?

 

[guy with a boat]

Yup, it matters to me. I was in art school in the early eighties and didn’t like what happened in the art world when stock market investors entered the scene. It changed things for the worse, in my opinion.

In Warhol’s case a couple investors started bidding wars to artificially drive up prices, putting an inflated “value” on the work which they could cash in on later. Aren’t there rules against that sort of thing in the stock market? What makes it illegal one place and acceptable in another?

The couple of investors can’t dictate the market. If no one else would pay the higher prices, then those investors are left holding the bag or, in this case an “overpriced” Warhol that they can’t get their money out of. Art and stocks are worth what buyers will pay and nothing else. And for those reasons, it is not illegal to overpay in either the art market or stock market, regardless of your motivations.

 

[MurrayM]

Nice anecdote about the old days of the art business, but it doesn't have anything to do with the current value of his work. If the value was simply from being "pumped" forty years ago, it would have crashed long ago. If your point is that the art world is a cut throat place with ethical standards lower than most bankers, so what else is new......

I wonder if the kids in art school in Florence resented what happened when those greedy Medicis entered the scene and changed things for the worse?

Same players are still at it and now the auction houses have bellied up to the trough as described in the article above.

And ever so was the gulf between artists and (most) gallery owners, and what works of personal expression would have been created if so much energy wasn’t taken up by satisfying patrons...we’ll never know.

 

[BandB]

Same players are still at it and now the auction houses have bellied up to the trough as described in the article above.

And ever so was the gulf between artists and (most) gallery owners, and what works of personal expression would have been created if so much energy wasn’t taken up by satisfying patrons...we’ll never know.

We (sometimes us specifically but mostly our company, not us) buy and sell a lot of art. The artists have to satisfy our patrons. Otherwise we don't buy. We visit small galleries everywhere we travel and as we look, we have two things in mind. Would we like it in our house? Could we sell it at a profit?

There are many varied tastes, but the small artist who ignores what is marketable is very unsuccessful. The best is when the artist is able to paint what they love and it's also popular with the buying public. Most artists have identified a demographic that their art appeals too. It's a fun world with wonderful people you meet in it. Not the big dollar artists, but some very good ones. We were just in Key West and did some purchasing, but there was one gallery especially with very high dollar art based on the artist's reputation. We knew nothing about that world of art so did not get involved.

To me, art is a form of communication. While an artist can put their feelings on canvas, I still find it a bit empty if they don't touch some others with it, and that's buyers. To me, they've failed to capture their feelings if no one else can look and feel it too. One artist we spent a little time with had gone wild painting since Irma. One reason was the need for income and a period without it. However, it was also a great release for her feelings. There were two distinct groupings. One was anger and sadness and depicted the aftermath. The other was hope and happiness and depicted the rebuilding under way. All were beautiful and would appeal to a lot of buyers.

 

[JLD]

There is a TruTV series called "Adam Ruins Everything" One episode was "How the Art Market is a Scam."

It's an interesting, if somewhat cynical, perspective. I believe that it deals with the higher end of the art market. Pretty similar to the Economist article cited earlier.

Although I seldom buy anything, and I could never do it from a business perspective, I do enjoy visiting smaller galleries when I travel.

Jim

 

[BandB]

There is a TruTV series called "Adam Ruins Everything" One episode was "How the Art Market is a Scam."

It's an interesting, if somewhat cynical, perspective. I believe that it deals with the higher end of the art market. Pretty similar to the Economist article cited earlier.

Although I seldom buy anything, and I could never do it from a business perspective, I do enjoy visiting smaller galleries when I travel.

Jim

There are many things bought and sold as investments where value is hard to understand. Start with the stock market and companies that have never made a dollar selling for billions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that applies to investments too. Some invest speculatively and based on anticipation of the item or market while others invest because they like the value of the item itself, not it's potential market value.

 

[Northern Spy]

Didn't watch the video, but familiar with the podcast.

Art value in that league is often just tax avoidance and money laundering. A completely portable and unregulated asset. Most of it is sitting "in transit" in a freeport warehouse in a Germanic speaking country.

That Chinese guy who bought the painting with American Express was pure genius.