Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 08-22-2016, 02:47 PM   #41
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,340
My eyes and head hurts reading this.

To the OP.....

I would stop dealing with the tower and contact just BOATUS insurance.

What has the adjuster said?

Or am I missing the fact that BoatUS is refusing the claim?

If they are, and you have a bill that discusses a pump used on your boat, I would be asking for supervisors at BoatUS till their ears bled.

Pump = salvage = hull insurance.

They try to get out of that and I would be hugely suprised.

You are on the hook for the salvage bill...but till I got the OK from the hull insurance for covering the salvage bill in full...I would be hesitant to lay the higher of the two. $5000 plus or minus is a really good price for pumping out a boat your size and towing it....

Paying that $5250 would keep your boat free in all likelyhood and the rest could be settled later with the savlor if not recognizing that as paid in full and whack in BoatUS for making this hard (if they have) when most of the time, the owner usually is barely involved.

I can't believe there is a disconnect between hull insurance and salvor towing, I don't think you are supposed to get jammed up there, BoatUS insurance must pay for towing in at least some cases as they paid Sea Tow as far as I know when we did their salvages.

I think there are some HUGE communication issues here...not sure where, but most salvages just like this go smoothly.

One question, did the towing company say up front this is salvage? If not, and you didn't sign a thing before the boat was moved....get a lawyer, you may owe nothing unless you get taken to court for time and materials...which will probably work out to the $5250...I will guess the rest was padding. And probably what the lawyer will charge too....
__________________
Advertisement

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 03:01 PM   #42
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainneil View Post
They pumped out the water. It had about 24" in engine room. Then towed it to Southport Marina. About 5 miles. Zimmermans Marine pulled it from the water and put it up on the hard. It is dry now, and a diesel mechanic pumped oil into the engines and generator.
This is salvage...plain and simple as the boat was recently used and not absndoned.

If you need an expert witness, I am available....
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 03:14 PM   #43
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
My eyes and head hurts reading this.

To the OP.....

I would stop dealing with the tower and contact just BOATUS insurance.

What has the adjuster said?

Or am I missing the fact that BoatUS is refusing the claim?

If they are, and you have a bill that discusses a pump used on your boat, I would be asking for supervisors at BoatUS till their ears bled.

Pump = salvage = hull insurance.

They try to get out of that and I would be hugely suprised.

You are on the hook for the salvage bill...but till I got the OK from the hull insurance for covering the salvage bill in full...I would be hesitant to lay the higher of the two. $5000 plus or minus is a really good price for pumping out a boat your size and towing it....

Paying that $5250 would keep your boat free in all likelyhood and the rest could be settled later with the savlor if not recognizing that as paid in full and whack in BoatUS for making this hard (if they have) when most of the time, the owner usually is barely involved.

I can't believe there is a disconnect between hull insurance and salvor towing, I don't think you are supposed to get jammed up there, BoatUS insurance must pay for towing in at least some cases as they paid Sea Tow as far as I know when we did their salvages.

I think there are some HUGE communication issues here...not sure where, but most salvages just like this go smoothly.

One question, did the towing company say up front this is salvage? If not, and you didn't sign a thing before the boat was moved....get a lawyer, you may owe nothing unless you get taken to court for time and materials...which will probably work out to the $5250...I will guess the rest was padding. And probably what the lawyer will charge too....
I've been asking the question about insurance and not yet seen an answer. Maybe I overlooked it. Did he say he had insurance on his boat through Boat US? That's my question is does he have insurance and, if so, doesn't it include salvage?
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 03:40 PM   #44
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I've been asking the question about insurance and not yet seen an answer. Maybe I overlooked it. Did he say he had insurance on his boat through Boat US? That's my question is does he have insurance and, if so, doesn't it include salvage?
I thought he had indicated in one of the two threads, no hull / liability and he did have towing insurance. Believe his complaint centered around the tow company not filing the tow claim with BoatUS. As previously described, if this was salvage, then the tow portion wouldn't be covered by his towing membership.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 03:42 PM   #45
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I've been asking the question about insurance and not yet seen an answer. Maybe I overlooked it. Did he say he had insurance on his boat through Boat US? That's my question is does he have insurance and, if so, doesn't it include salvage?
Oooops...reread post #1. Finally absorbed the one sentence.

Looks like no hull insurance....

Sorry for my I'll advised posts...

Uness you can absolutely prove you said "please dont salvage my boat"...

Run don't walk to that BoatUS office and pay the $5250. It's a bargain and legal is gonna only raise that already fair price.

If the salvor won't confirm the $5250 is payment in full...see what will, but for every extra dollar he wants, one or both of you will be spending time in court. How much is it worth to him and/or you to raise the stakes?

But you are definitely on the hook for at least something at this point.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 04:12 PM   #46
Guru
 
City: Full Time Cruising East Coast
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Meridian
Vessel Model: Krogen-42
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 729
If you have the time of the incident, call BoatUS on their 800 first and let then know whats up. They can dispatch the local rep.
__________________
-------------------------
Terry
Meridian
KK-42097
meridian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 05:11 PM   #47
Veteran Member
 
jrs1958's Avatar
 
City: Ft pierce
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Resolute
Vessel Model: 2000 47' Selene
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 74
Did you have any insurance liability etc
jrs1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 06:31 PM   #48
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Oooops...reread post #1. Finally absorbed the one sentence.

Looks like no hull insurance....

.
Yes, I just reread that but the one he hasn't answered is liability or if there was any salvage insurance, but I'm assuming the answer is "no." Everytime I see people talking about no insurance, I think of cases like this as instead of $5500, it would be very easy to have a $50,000 bill. Just takes a small environmental issue.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 06:42 PM   #49
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Yes, I just reread that but the one he hasn't answered is liability or if there was any salvage insurance, but I'm assuming the answer is "no." Everytime I see people talking about no insurance, I think of cases like this as instead of $5500, it would be very easy to have a $50,000 bill. Just takes a small environmental issue.
So true. A $15,000 boat can sink and leave the owner with a much greater liability than just the loss of the boat. Insurance is a good thing to have.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2016, 05:30 PM   #50
Member
 
City: Shelby
Country: USA
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 9
We've been told by Tow BoatUs even though we have unlimited gold towing that any tow that involves engine trouble, taking on water, grounding or fire will always be considered salvage and will not be paid for at all and will always result in a bill of many thousands of dollars. Can anyone tell me any situation that tow boat would pay for? When did this change? Fifteen years ago I had my 50' ketch towed w engines problems and it was totally paid for by towboat us. When did this change? Today I can see no circumstance that TowBoatUs towing would pay for anything.
captainneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2016, 06:18 PM   #51
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainneil View Post
We've been told by Tow BoatUs even though we have unlimited gold towing that any tow that involves engine trouble, taking on water, grounding or fire will always be considered salvage and will not be paid for at all and will always result in a bill of many thousands of dollars. Can anyone tell me any situation that tow boat would pay for? When did this change? Fifteen years ago I had my 50' ketch towed w engines problems and it was totally paid for by towboat us. When did this change? Today I can see no circumstance that TowBoatUs towing would pay for anything.

From their website:

Paid Services Include:

Payment for towing Member's disabled boat from the point of breakdown at sea to port of choice; at sea battery jumpstarts; delivery of fuel, engine fluids and basic engine parts to avoid a tow, subject to availability; soft ungrounding assistance; towing the disabled boat immediately after breakdown from a restricted use dock to the Member's home dock or repair facility.


Seems pretty clear to me. A disabled boat in no danger of sinking seems to be covered.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2016, 06:30 PM   #52
Senior Member
 
Fletcher500's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Chelsea Rose
Vessel Model: Helmsman 43 PH: on order
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 315
Engine trouble, and I suppose you could put running out of fuel in that category ,represents about 90% of all tows. They tow boat operators would be making more money than a Wall Street Lawyer if that were the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainneil View Post
We've been told by Tow BoatUs even though we have unlimited gold towing that any tow that involves engine trouble, taking on water, grounding or fire will always be considered salvage and will not be paid for at all and will always result in a bill of many thousands of dollars. Can anyone tell me any situation that tow boat would pay for? When did this change? Fifteen years ago I had my 50' ketch towed w engines problems and it was totally paid for by towboat us. When did this change? Today I can see no circumstance that TowBoatUs towing would pay for anything.
Fletcher500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2016, 07:15 PM   #53
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,340
Engine trouble is certainly covered....UNLESS....the trouble is from flooding or fire.

Though I never encountered or heard of it.....if you ripped the bottom of your boat out.....and it was where integral fuel tanks were, it probably would be salvage, not running out of fuel.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2016, 07:36 PM   #54
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainneil View Post
We've been told by Tow BoatUs even though we have unlimited gold towing that any tow that involves engine trouble, taking on water, grounding or fire will always be considered salvage and will not be paid for at all and will always result in a bill of many thousands of dollars. Can anyone tell me any situation that tow boat would pay for? When did this change? Fifteen years ago I had my 50' ketch towed w engines problems and it was totally paid for by towboat us. When did this change? Today I can see no circumstance that TowBoatUs towing would pay for anything.
Look at it this way. TowBoat and SeaTow services are like AAA. They will help you when you break down on the side of the road. Maybe tow you to a shop or give you a jump, but if you are involved in a wreck, they aren't going to fix your car. You will have to call your car insurance for that.

I think part of the confusion is that the same guy that SALVAGED your boat was also a hired contractor for TowBoat. However, once the level of service he needed to provide to save your boat was beyond what TowBoat would cover, the TowBoat hat came off and he put on his general contractor cap. Perhaps he may not have made that clear enough.

Only you can decide how to deal with this because none of us were there and were not privy to what, exactly, was said. What is true though, is that from what you have described, your service was certainly a salvage that is not covered by TowBoat and that the guy that did the work wants his money.

Good luck... Keep us posted so we can all learn from it.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2016, 11:37 PM   #55
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainneil View Post
We've been told by Tow BoatUs even though we have unlimited gold towing that any tow that involves engine trouble, taking on water, grounding or fire will always be considered salvage and will not be paid for at all and will always result in a bill of many thousands of dollars. Can anyone tell me any situation that tow boat would pay for? When did this change? Fifteen years ago I had my 50' ketch towed w engines problems and it was totally paid for by towboat us. When did this change? Today I can see no circumstance that TowBoatUs towing would pay for anything.
The information is all on their website, all quite clear. They do tow for engine trouble. They tow for soft grounding. They don't do anything for water, sinking, hard grounding, or fire. I don't know what you've been told by who but just read the site. You cannot blame TowBoat US for this. They are following their policy and their agreement. They tow many boats at no charge, every day. People have engine problems, run out of fuel, have soft groundings and they get towed. Yours is clearly by every tow company definition salvage. And nothing changed. It's the same policy basically as 15 years ago.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2016, 12:00 AM   #56
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,245
Interesting. Are there rules determining the amount a salvor can charge? I get the impression people in a salvage situation, desperate as they may be, see themselves unempowered in terms of making arrangements, a sort of: "Agree or Sink" situation.
Can the charge a salvor seeks to recover be taken to a tribunal to determine its reasonableness, or is "reasonableness" not a consideration?
In Equity Courts (colloquially called"The Whispering Jurisdiction"here for its gentle ways of proceeding) it was said the relief available varied with the length of the Equity Chancellors foot; in other words it was a highly subjective determination.
Is the determiner here the salvor, or are there rules?
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2016, 12:19 AM   #57
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
Interesting. Are there rules determining the amount a salvor can charge? I get the impression people in a salvage situation, desperate as they may be, see themselves unempowered in terms of making arrangements, a sort of: "Agree or Sink" situation.
Can the charge a salvor seeks to recover be taken to a tribunal to determine its reasonableness, or is "reasonableness" not a consideration?
In Equity Courts (colloquially called"The Whispering Jurisdiction"here for its gentle ways of proceeding) it was said the relief available varied with the length of the Equity Chancellors foot; in other words it was a highly subjective determination.
Is the determiner here the salvor, or are there rules?
No rules. Should agree in advance either on a fixed amount or on the hourly and mileage rates. However, in those situations most are just happy for salvage and don't get prices quoted.

You can take the salvor to court, unless you sign a contract agreeing to arbitration, and even then you sometimes can. The problem is that courts are a long process and until the point of a decision, if you don't pay, the salvor has the lien. That makes a more reasonable approach to pay and then to go to court after if you feel necessary.

The majority of salvage is done through insurance companies and they do have agreements with salvage companies and understandings on charges. They are experienced at handling it. They are also willing and ready to have salvage done as the alternative is a total loss plus salvage. Typically, if the salvage charge is no more than 10% of the value of the boat, they're happy.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2016, 11:03 AM   #58
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,691
Non lawyer here, but have been around a bunch of marine salvage cases. As I understand it, to claim salvage, there must be a peril.

If you have water in your bilge, and the pump does not work, but no further water is entering, there is no peril and thus no salvage. Otherwise any mechanic that fixes a failed pump could make such a claim. Does not matter if there is 100gal in bilge, or three ounces.

If the water is flooding in, TB puts pumps in and prevents a sinking, that is a salvage.

Whenever dealing with a potential salvage, try to get an agreement on the spot what the fee will be for the service. I did this with a slip tenant whose sailboat was blown up in the surf line on the beach. I run over on a skiff and TB and BUS were both there, not connected. Boat owner was freaking out and unable to negotiate. I acted as his agent. I skiff'd over to the two tow boats and a little bidding war ensued. Final bid was $1300, which I thought was fair. I told the winning bidder to proceed with getting the boat off the beach, and owner concurred on the radio. Boat was pulled off with no damage beyond a little rash. Owner paid the tow boat the agreed fee and no salvage claims were made, as far as I know.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2016, 11:22 AM   #59
Senior Member
 
City: Albany, NY
Country: Albany
Vessel Name: Gypsy Star
Vessel Model: Gulf Star 43
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 160
I've got to throw in a kudo for TowboatUS here. I had a long tow a couple years ago. Simple tow, just loss of oil due to a seal leak.

A few days later, I got a call from the boat that towed me saying that I owed them $1700. I said, "What about that invoice I signed when you were along side with a big zero at the bottom?"

He said, "That's just what TowboatUS paid. It was a long tow and you own me the balance." I said I would only pay it if the TowboatUS mothership said I owed it.

"Well, ask them whatever you like. This is between you and me now, it has nothing to do with TowboatUS and I'll have the sheriff there in the morning to seize your boat and throw you off it while we sort it out."

I told TowboatUS what was going on. They slapped him up alongside the head and told him they would yank his franchise so fast his head wouldn't stop spinning for a week if he ever tried something like that again. They even sent me the emails.

I never heard anything more about it but I hope never to need a tow in the Solomons, MD area again.
Roger Long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2016, 12:32 PM   #60
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Non lawyer here, but have been around a bunch of marine salvage cases. As I understand it, to claim salvage, there must be a peril.

If you have water in your bilge, and the pump does not work, but no further water is entering, there is no peril and thus no salvage. Otherwise any mechanic that fixes a failed pump could make such a claim. Does not matter if there is 100gal in bilge, or three ounces.

If the water is flooding in, TB puts pumps in and prevents a sinking, that is a salvage.

Whenever dealing with a potential salvage, try to get an agreement on the spot what the fee will be for the service. I did this with a slip tenant whose sailboat was blown up in the surf line on the beach. I run over on a skiff and TB and BUS were both there, not connected. Boat owner was freaking out and unable to negotiate. I acted as his agent. I skiff'd over to the two tow boats and a little bidding war ensued. Final bid was $1300, which I thought was fair. I told the winning bidder to proceed with getting the boat off the beach, and owner concurred on the radio. Boat was pulled off with no damage beyond a little rash. Owner paid the tow boat the agreed fee and no salvage claims were made, as far as I know.
There are two different issues. You're talking about the procedure for making a salvage claim. That differs from salvage towing for an owner.
__________________

BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
boat took on water, boat yard and towing lien

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012