Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 08-17-2016, 02:48 PM   #21
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,268
Different tow operators do different things and sometimes not within the technical rules of membership.

As to towing vs salvage let's try a different approach. If whatever has taken place and is going on would be a valid insurance claim (you don't have to make one for this to come into play), then that's salvage. Hard grounding you have damage that could be. Sinking you have damage that could be. In all those cases the towing would be included as part of your insurance. Now, you don't get a break from the tow company if you don't have insurance.

Once again, a reminder to everyone that Towboat US and Seatow are not insurance policies or insurance in any way. They are membership agreements. They are there to cover things that insurance won't. Read the agreements carefully. Look at the exclusions, they are there. Now, sometimes you might protest and they might reconsider, but just because they're nice in one case, doesn't mean you can expect that.

In this case, the moment you had the sinking, it became insurance and not tow membership, it became salvage.
__________________
Advertisement

BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 03:41 PM   #22
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 4,548
I thought I would read what BoatUS says about the difference between towing and salvage. They are my insurance company so their options would directly affect me should I ever find myself in that situation. Reading, I found this image in Prt 2 PF the article.

Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1471466707.773046.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	48.9 KB
ID:	55329

This is a photo of my boat that I hadn't seen before. FWIW, they labeled this as "salvage". Trevor Brice from North Pacific Yachts did tell me that the owner in this situation did not get a clear contract from the tow assist operator prior to the work being done. This resulted in a later dispute where the tow operator wished to claim a % of the value of the boat. It was resolved by the insurance company but was an example of the owner not knowing the rules and his rights and responsibilities.
__________________

__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 04:07 PM   #23
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 14,805
Having BatUS towing and BoatUS insurance are 2 different things and really not connected.


BoatUS insurance often used Sea Tow in the Cape may area for salvage jobs...just depends.


Being able to claim a percentage of a yachts worth for a salvage is very hard unless true peril is involved.... for both the vessel and the salvor.


Often arbitration resolves the difference in opinions.


If you are in a situation other than a gentle rocking on the bottom or just broken down and adrift or anchored...ask...covered or salvage? If salvage, then there are a few forms that should be gone over before work commences.


If your boat is in danger of more damage occurring...and things are urgent...it IS salvage and signing anything or not is almost irrelevant. Refuse help and your insurance company can balk at you not trying to reduce the damage. Take the help and your insurance argues and refuses the claim....well they will be hard pressed if you can clearly show your vessel was in danger.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 04:15 PM   #24
Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 623
There was a situation a few years back when 4 boats from our marina decided to raft up to a single anchor at Block Island. Up comes the wind, nobody on board, and away they (4 boats) go!! The friendly tow company (well used to this situation) relocated the vessels to spare moorings and charged each boat a salvage fee of about 10% of perceived value. At least one insurance company paid up. Not sure about the others.
I am glad to say we were well secured with an 88lb Rocna and 100+ft of chain!!
Chrisjs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 04:21 PM   #25
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 14,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisjs View Post
There was a situation a few years back when 4 boats from our marina decided to raft up to a single anchor at Block Island. Up comes the wind, nobody on board, and away they (4 boats) go!! The friendly tow company (well used to this situation) relocated the vessels to spare moorings and charged each boat a salvage fee of about 10% of perceived value. At least one insurance company paid up. Not sure about the others.
I am glad to say we were well secured with an 88lb Rocna and 100+ft of chain!!
Easily fought and won for a reasonable fee rather than percentage.

Unless that tower could prove the vessels were in a situation of imminent total or near total loss....
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 04:52 PM   #26
Veteran Member
 
jrs1958's Avatar
 
City: Ft pierce
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Resolute
Vessel Model: 2000 47' Selene
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 74
Did you have liability insurance. I've gotten that on past boats from Boat USA and they cover moving the boat if it sinks, oil spills etc. they don't cover the boat.
Did you sign anything with the tow boat operator?
So sorry for this mess you have to deal with!
jrs1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 05:08 PM   #27
Veteran Member
 
jrs1958's Avatar
 
City: Ft pierce
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Resolute
Vessel Model: 2000 47' Selene
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 74
How is your boat now and what was the extent of the damage to the hull.
jrs1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 05:10 PM   #28
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 4,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Having BatUS towing and BoatUS insurance are 2 different things and really not connected.


BoatUS insurance often used Sea Tow in the Cape may area for salvage jobs...just depends.


Being able to claim a percentage of a yachts worth for a salvage is very hard unless true peril is involved.... for both the vessel and the salvor.


Often arbitration resolves the difference in opinions.


If you are in a situation other than a gentle rocking on the bottom or just broken down and adrift or anchored...ask...covered or salvage? If salvage, then there are a few forms that should be gone over before work commences.


If your boat is in danger of more damage occurring...and things are urgent...it IS salvage and signing anything or not is almost irrelevant. Refuse help and your insurance company can balk at you not trying to reduce the damage. Take the help and your insurance argues and refuses the claim....well they will be hard pressed if you can clearly show your vessel was in danger.
Very succinct explanation. Thanks.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 05:18 PM   #29
Veteran Member
 
jrs1958's Avatar
 
City: Ft pierce
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Resolute
Vessel Model: 2000 47' Selene
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 74
I guess to be ultra safe shut all seacocks when leaving the boat for any period. A pain but....
jrs1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 05:40 PM   #30
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs1958 View Post
I guess to be ultra safe shut all seacocks when leaving the boat for any period. A pain but....
He never told us the cause of the water, did he?

Having alarms is a lesson to learn too and they can easily send messages to your cell phone. Relatively inexpensive.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 07:52 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
Fletcher500's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Chelsea Rose
Vessel Model: Beneteau, 44, Volvo D6 Mains
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 285
i have seen pre filled out contracts you can keep on board when push comes to shove. But as noted, if you are sinking, on fire, or whatever, it's best to just sign on the dotted line and hope for the best.
Fletcher500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 11:27 PM   #32
Hospitality Officer
 
Andy G's Avatar
 
City: Pittwater
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Sarawana
Vessel Model: IG 36 Quad Cabin
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,541
[QUOTE=Chrisjs;470848]The friendly tow company (well used to this situation) relocated the vessels to spare moorings and charged each boat a salvage fee of about 10% of perceived value.

Seems like not all pirates are restricted to the the Somalia coast.
Andy G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 09:59 AM   #33
Member
 
City: Shelby
Country: USA
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 9
Salvage Lien

The drama continues. When our boat took on water as described in previous posts, Tow Boat Us/George Bruton was called to St James Marina in Southport NC to assist with our boat we were under the impression the boat would have the water pumped out and we authorized the towing of our boat to Southport Marina so it could be hauled out for inspection and any damage repaired. We told them we had towing insurance through TowBoat US. We received a bill for $9500 from Mr Bruton and told us it was for salvage. We under no circumstance agreed to salvage. He said it didn't matter it was salvage. On top of that because Mr Bruton put it down as salvage our TowBoat US will not cover any of the towing. I was extremely distressed by the bill and said it was not the issue of paying any bill but we are talking less than 4 hours to pump out, tow the boat 5 miles to Southport and the marina lifting the boat out of the water. Mr Bruton after I threatened to pursue legal intervention immediately reduced the bill to $5250. We asked to have him send the new revised bill to us before we make payment. Payment is not an issue. He is refusing to send, or email the revised bill. He has now threatened to have the US Marshall seize the boat unless we pay the $5250 immediately otherwise he is putting the price back to $9500. We need a bill showing the revised amount. We are afraid if we pay him the $5250 without a copy of the revised amount he will then try to pursue the balance of the $9500. Suggestions??????
captainneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 10:10 AM   #34
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 4,548
I would simply take $5,250 cash with you to his office. While you are there, see if he will take less than the $5,250. When the price is negotiated, have him give you a receipt, signed by him, that not only shows the amount paid but that the bill has been paid in full.

If the boat was sinking and required pumps and a haul out to be saved, it was salvage not just a tow. Unfortunately, you and the contractor should have settled on a price at the time and signed a salvage agreement on site. BoatUS has a sample salvage contract where both parties agree to binding arbitration.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 12:01 PM   #35
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: Saint Augustine, Fl.
Country: Port of St Augustine ,FL
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,804
Whatever you pay the salvage operator get a release of lien/Paid in full for salvage services rendered.

Any salvage contract that provides for arbitration has the potential to be fair for both sides. Keep greedy salvors and unscrupulous insurers in line.

I feel for the party that gets screwed by a towboat/salvage operator. It happens and we all know it happens. However, I have been on the other side of the coin and got blindsided by owners and their insurance companies.

The first time (I had a Sea-tow licensed area), a prominent yacht broker ran his 36' S/V on a rockpile that was exposed to ocean swells and a large tidal range. We responded and he told us the boat was working and grinding on her side and probably not going to be able to be salvaged in tact. I assumed the risks involved and would be paid nothing unless successful. Owner agreed and signed the SALVAGE form, he acknowledged that this was not simple towage and that we would be persuing a salvage claim IF we were SUCCESSFUL. NO CURE NO PAY. 9 hours later we (another boat was brought in) had her refloated and in the travel lift at his marina. I had the boat surveyed for damages and salved value ( what its worth minus cost of repairs). A comprehensive report with documentation and pictures was delivered with our claim for $14000 was presented to the insurance company, we were prepared to negotiate. Ocean underwriters of Cocoa Beach Fl was the insurer. They said not only was the bill outrageous but they were not acknowledging it was even salvage, they considered it routine towage. Owner had a lapse of memory as well, seems it was no big deal or that his boat was in any real danger. After months of back and forth with the insurance company, we agreed to have it arbitrated by a federal judge. When the dust settled, we were awarded almost $41,000 and the judge got rather angry with the insurance company for trying to bully a small salvor and deny a very valid claim. Pictures and documentation go a long way to head off memory loss after the fact.
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 12:26 PM   #36
Veteran Member
 
jrs1958's Avatar
 
City: Ft pierce
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Resolute
Vessel Model: 2000 47' Selene
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 74
I guess the main issue was the boat in danger of sinking or not? Was it listing? If yes you owe the salvage.
jrs1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 12:37 PM   #37
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainneil View Post
The drama continues. When our boat took on water as described in previous posts, Tow Boat Us/George Bruton was called to St James Marina in Southport NC to assist with our boat we were under the impression the boat would have the water pumped out and we authorized the towing of our boat to Southport Marina so it could be hauled out for inspection and any damage repaired. We told them we had towing insurance through TowBoat US. We received a bill for $9500 from Mr Bruton and told us it was for salvage. We under no circumstance agreed to salvage. He said it didn't matter it was salvage. On top of that because Mr Bruton put it down as salvage our TowBoat US will not cover any of the towing. I was extremely distressed by the bill and said it was not the issue of paying any bill but we are talking less than 4 hours to pump out, tow the boat 5 miles to Southport and the marina lifting the boat out of the water. Mr Bruton after I threatened to pursue legal intervention immediately reduced the bill to $5250. We asked to have him send the new revised bill to us before we make payment. Payment is not an issue. He is refusing to send, or email the revised bill. He has now threatened to have the US Marshall seize the boat unless we pay the $5250 immediately otherwise he is putting the price back to $9500. We need a bill showing the revised amount. We are afraid if we pay him the $5250 without a copy of the revised amount he will then try to pursue the balance of the $9500. Suggestions??????
The $5250 isn't a reduced bill, but it's a settlement offer. You either accept or pay. If he was forced to go to court he'd go back to the $9500. You either get with him, pay $5250 and get a signed release from him as paid in full or face litigation on $9500.

You told him you had "towing insurance" per your words. Towboat US is not towing insurance, it's a membership. Do you not have tow coverage on your boat insurance policy? Is that the issue, that you don't have boat insurance?

This is clearly, by the definitions in the membership agreement you have with TowBoat US, salvage.

This is all very unfortunate and I do understand your frustration. However, the facts are what they are. As to whether the $9500 was a reasonable charge, I don't know what he did, but it could very well have been within industry norms or it could be high. Salvage is done on a much higher pricing scale than is towing. It requires more expertise, more equipment, often extra manpower, and entails greater potential problems and liability.

This is an area of regular confusion for several reasons. Most people don't read their agreements and policies and don't understand the difference between towing and salvage. Also, people keep referring to the towing membership in Towboat US as insurance. It is not. Making it even more confusing is the fact that Boat US does offer insurance so if one isn't careful they get the two confused.

Seatow is very similar in their membership and in addition to towing membership they offer insurance as Seainsure. I thought it might be interesting just so you know it's not Towboat US to quote the Seatow membership agreement.

Salvage Operations: Salvage operations, including, but not limited to, vessels abandoned, wrecked, beached, on fire, damaged by fire, taking on water, sinking, sunk, previously sunk, in the surf or surf line, or in any other state of peril, are not privileges of membership.


Your choices today are to settle for $5250, negotiate a different settlement, or face the burden of litigating the $9500 plus being responsible for additional costs such as the Marshals cost and storage and legal fees.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 01:16 PM   #38
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: Saint Augustine, Fl.
Country: Port of St Augustine ,FL
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs1958 View Post
I guess the main issue was the boat in danger of sinking or not? Was it listing? If yes you owe the salvage.
It absolutely was in danger of sinking and smashing herself to death with resulting fuel spill on an exposed coast.
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 01:43 PM   #39
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Towboat US is not towing insurance, it's a membership.

I would think it'd be easy to think that something like the "Unlimited Gold" water towing option BoatUS offers -- for $$$ -- is "insurance." It's different from BoatUS membership, different from the limited towing benefit that comes with a basic BoatUS membership.

I don't see much difference in the "towing" wording between BoatUS and our insurance policy. (We have both.)

Not necessarily germane to the situation here (I can't seem to grasp the order of events, who did what to whom, who said what when, etc.), just an observation...

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2016, 02:03 PM   #40
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
I would think it'd be easy to think that something like the "Unlimited Gold" water towing option BoatUS offers -- for $$$ -- is "insurance." It's different from BoatUS membership, different from the limited towing benefit that comes with a basic BoatUS membership.

I don't see much difference in the "towing" wording between BoatUS and our insurance policy. (We have both.)

Not necessarily germane to the situation here (I can't seem to grasp the order of events, who did what to whom, who said what when, etc.), just an observation...

-Chris
It might be easy to think that but everywhere they use the term, "Towing Membership" and they refer to the plan as "Unlimited Gold Towing Membership." They are very careful with their wording.

And it's good to have towing membership and to have insurance, as your insurance policy won't cover some of the things the towing membership does. I assume the issue is that the OP did not have any insurance or his insurance didn't cover towing or salvage.

It just makes the point once again that one must read carefully all agreements and policies.
__________________

BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
boat took on water, boat yard and towing lien

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012