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Old 10-10-2016, 03:13 PM   #21
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I understand, thanks Chris
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:13 PM   #22
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B&B, I am not familiar with this. Do I understand correctly that an Umbrella would be tied to your marine policy extending liability over and above it's limits? or is it a standalone policy that extends liability to all your assets whatever they may be?
Umbrella is as the name implies and not just for one part of your life. It covers above the limits of your other policies, always a secondary payer. So if you want it to cover boat liability then you must have a boat liability policy in place. Now, in order to know what is covered, you do need to tell them about all other policies.

Still, it's low cost for a lot of protection and peace of mind. Whether it's $5 million, $10 million or more it costs less than you might think. For most people, an umbrella policy will never have a single payout. However, when someone gets seriously and permanently injured or dies, then suddenly you get sued for all kinds of 7 digit money. Your primary liability policy likely pays to it's limit and then either you pay the rest or your umbrella policy does. Serious accidents can happen anywhere at any time.
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Old 10-10-2016, 07:38 PM   #23
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Had Flo coverage for home and vehicles for many years. No claims. They wouldn't insure Shangri-La, too old they said.
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Old 10-10-2016, 08:03 PM   #24
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Enviormental is required by all policies written, $800,000 as I recall, but the coverage is cheap...for now. Progressive canceled me...no claims for 2 years after I moved my agent with Progressive to FL from TX 2009 to 2011 in Tx. Then I truthfully answered to being a live aboard, not knowing to lie, I went from St Pete to Vero W/O coverage and did not know it because I did not get a call.

I am very resentful to Flo (TV spokesperson) and progressive. Been with Atlass out of Ft Lauderdale since, still no claim, but they seem responsive. I just give them...(ins companies) money, and more money, and still more money. Thankfully no claims.

If I get hurt on highway, boat or wherever, laying there, bleeding, knowing it is not my fault and I find out their insurance is with Progressive I will ask they call my lawyer BEFORE the EMT's. cause I, given the dreaded opportunity will stick it to them anyway I can.
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Old 10-10-2016, 11:39 PM   #25
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Enviormental is required by all policies written, $800,000 as I recall, but the coverage is cheap...for now. Progressive canceled me...no claims for 2 years after I moved my agent with Progressive to FL from TX 2009 to 2011 in Tx. Then I truthfully answered to being a live aboard, not knowing to lie, I went from St Pete to Vero W/O coverage and did not know it because I did not get a call.

I am very resentful to Flo (TV spokesperson) and progressive. Been with Atlass out of Ft Lauderdale since, still no claim, but they seem responsive. I just give them...(ins companies) money, and more money, and still more money. Thankfully no claims.

If I get hurt on highway, boat or wherever, laying there, bleeding, knowing it is not my fault and I find out their insurance is with Progressive I will ask they call my lawyer BEFORE the EMT's. cause I, given the dreaded opportunity will stick it to them anyway I can.
There is no requirement for insurance policies to have environmental coverage. In fact, there is very little regulation on the form or coverage of boat policies. Most states have lots of rules on auto insurance but fewer on houses and very few, if any, on boats.

Also, never lie in getting insurance. You're doing the insurer a huge favor if you do, by giving them a reason to not pay a claim. They'll gladly take your money. The do not generally do much checking when issuing policies, but far more in handling claims.
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Old 10-10-2016, 11:54 PM   #26
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... I truthfully answered to being a live aboard, not knowing to lie....
Knowing to lie?!
Insurance obtained on the basis of a lie is often no insurance at all. Here, and I expect there, you have a duty of disclosure, and an obligation to answer questions in the proposal truthfully, as you did. Here, there is a duty of "utmost good faith", which is a mutual obligation, as some insurers have discovered the hard way.
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Old 10-11-2016, 12:41 AM   #27
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Enviormental is required by all policies written, $800,000 as I recall, but the coverage is cheap...for now. Progressive canceled me...no claims for 2 years after I moved my agent with Progressive to FL from TX 2009 to 2011 in Tx. Then I truthfully answered to being a live aboard, not knowing to lie, I went from St Pete to Vero W/O coverage and did not know it because I did not get a call.

I am very resentful to Flo (TV spokesperson) and progressive. Been with Atlass out of Ft Lauderdale since, still no claim, but they seem responsive. I just give them...(ins companies) money, and more money, and still more money. Thankfully no claims.

If I get hurt on highway, boat or wherever, laying there, bleeding, knowing it is not my fault and I find out their insurance is with Progressive I will ask they call my lawyer BEFORE the EMT's. cause I, given the dreaded opportunity will stick it to them anyway I can.
Let me get this straight...you answered Progressive's questions honestly and because they do not allow liveaboards, they dropped you. Now you're upset thinking you should have lied to them? And you're looking forward to sticking it to them any way you can?

Wow! That's a whole lot to put out there in a public forum. It speaks volumes.
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Old 10-11-2016, 08:53 AM   #28
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Yeah FW, they put me in a compromised position for the scheduled trip from St Pete to Vero. I did not get a call, an EMail...Nothing. When my snail mail caught up I found out. Thank goodness nothing happened. Then I had to make another call to get my money back.

Don't even begin to attempt to lecture me about the ethics of insurance company practices. Just go coat to coast...border to border to find folks that feel sorry for insurance companies. Were it not for pharmaceutical companies the Executives of Insurance companies would have no place to point to and say, "Think we are bad, get a load of those guys". Find someone, other than an insurance man, that think they (as an industry) operate in an ethical manner.b good luck.

I will never forget Farmers Insurance adjusters, after Moore OK tornado some years back, demanding of people standing in front of the remaining slab of their home, an idemized list of their loss rather than cutting a check for the face value of the policy.
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Old 10-11-2016, 09:35 AM   #29
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There is no requirement for insurance policies to have environmental coverage. In fact, there is very little regulation on the form or coverage of boat policies. Most states have lots of rules on auto insurance but fewer on houses and very few, if any, on boats.

Also, never lie in getting insurance. You're doing the insurer a huge favor if you do, by giving them a reason to not pay a claim. They'll gladly take your money. The do not generally do much checking when issuing policies, but far more in handling claims.
My agent does not know if this is a regulatory or legislative requirement but EVERY policy they write for yachts there is $900,000 enviro coverage. They are a large insurer in Fort Lauderdale. You cannot have it excluded upon request.
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Old 10-11-2016, 09:36 AM   #30
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Well, Mule, I will lecture you on insurance company ethics.

Insuring companies are usually demonized by those who-

1) don't read their policy, but expect the policy to cover everything
2) place low premium as the highest priority vice solid coverages
3) believe they are more knowledgeable that those in the industry, and refuse to listen to their agent/broker
4) aren't forthcoming and truthful in representing the risk

Under uberrimae fidei, both parties are required to disclose anything that is material to the risk, even if not asked. The insuring company is on the hook to pay claims that fall within the scope of the policy language, so we want to be clear as the the various aspects of the risk materially as well as situationally. Premiums paid are but a fraction of the insured value of the vessel, and that is the risk the insurer assumes.

Progressive doesn't cover liveaboards- if you are a liveaboard and knew this, yet selected them as your carrier based on the premium, then you are at fault for violating uberrimae fidei. In my experience as both an agent/broker and now as an underwriter, I say with confidence that we do not look for ways to "not" pay a claim- we ensure from policy inception (based on info provided by the client) to vet and underwrite the risk as best we can to ensure proper coverage. By doing so, the claims process is an non event. Example- last December, my wife and I purchased a new 13' Whaler. In July, while under tow, the Whaler flipped over. There was damage to the engine, electrical systems, electronics, etc.

We filed the claim, and had the check in 4 days. The claims Rep did not know I was in the business- I was just another file and claim number to him.

The only times I can remember having claims challenges are all based on the four above listed reasons.

Select the proper policy and have peace of mind. Select your policy based on the above, and roll the dice should a claim occur- and know that the insuring companies have the resources to closely investigate claims for fraud and non compliance.

BTW, pollution coverage is now $939,800.
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Old 10-11-2016, 10:11 AM   #31
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My agent does not know if this is a regulatory or legislative requirement but EVERY policy they write for yachts there is $900,000 enviro coverage. They are a large insurer in Fort Lauderdale. You cannot have it excluded upon request.
They are covering the maximum you can generally be held responsible for, but it's not required by law, unfortunately. No policy should be without it however and no insurer should write coverage without it.
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Old 10-11-2016, 10:37 AM   #32
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When will an insurer investigate for fraud?

Well, not typically on a small claim. However, on major claims they will fact check to start and then if something doesn't feel right, they'll investigate. If a boat catches fire at a dock and is destroyed, they're definitely going to find out if someone was living on it. If a boat mysteriously sinks at sea, they're going to find out where you stood on payments on the boat. They also know the signs of fraudulent action by those in divorce proceedings.

As to personal belongings in a house or on a boat, I'd suggest everyone have an inventory of items and, in today's world where it's so easy, have current photos of every room, every cabin on a boat. While there may be an agreed value on the boat or house (although not on many policies where it's stated but not agreed), there isn't on personal items. It's amazing how the flea market painting is suddenly a Picasso when destroyed. However, most policies on homes require those items and jewelry to be under separate policies as the limits for those items on basic policies is generally low. Just because you have a limit of $100k on contents, doesn't mean that's what they'll pay, and whether you have replacement value or depreciated value is a huge difference. Here is a typical personal effects clause.
“Personal effects” are any items owned by the insured that
do not exceed in value the amount stated on the
declaration sheets or in Section B3(e) below and are
normally worn or carried on a person while on board the
insured vessel(s). Personal effects do not include jewelry,
watches, cell phones, PDA’s, eye wear, furs, fine arts,
collectibles, money, credit, debit or other bankcards,
checks, notes, stocks, bonds, or any other financial
instruments, securities or intangible property.
And back to Pau's point number one. If you own any insurance policy you haven't read, you need to go read it soon. Every word. Every exclusion. Every requirement placed on you.

I've read some pretty tough exclusions on policies from very reputable insurers. Here's one on theft:

Theft is only covered if the items are stolen from locked
premises and there are visible signs of forced entry.


Basically if you don't lock your doors, you're not covered per that.

And one on sails and canvas:

Sails and canvas damaged or lost due solely to
foreseeable wind and weather conditions are not covered.


So, hurricane Matthew destroyed your canvas. Not covered per that.

I've seen people on the lake have boats sink due to muskrats eating through the bellows and find out they had a vermin exclusion.
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Old 10-11-2016, 11:02 AM   #33
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Pau Hana, "Progressive doesn't cover liveaboards- if you are a liveaboard and knew this"

I answered the questions in the agents office, gave her a check. Had I known their policy concerning live aboards I would not have used them. Progressive out of Houston had insured for 2 years. I looked upon it as just a transfer to get an agent closer to me. No one told me, (me thinking this just a paper formality for a loyal low risk client) this was a new application and my history meant nothing.

Even at that, their policy of no live aboards, I have no problem with. What I do have a problem with is that I was not covered on the trip from St Pete to Vero and did not know it through no fault of my own. I pay Dr's, mechanics and other specialist to do a job and part of that is for them to look after my interest. I should not have to be a specialist in every field in order to protect my interest. If that is the case then why do I need a Dr, lawyer, insurance agent and so forth.

BTW, I did not have an increase in premiums when established insurance in FL.
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Old 10-11-2016, 11:26 AM   #34
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What I do have a problem with is that I was not covered on the trip from St Pete to Vero and did not know it through no fault of my own. .
That would have infuriated me too. However, you merit at least part of the blame as it was partly through fault of your own. Almost all bad news from insurers still comes by snail mail. Most policies require it. It sometimes comes without the agent even being aware. But cancellations are sent that way. Incidentally, tax notices, IRS letters and many other legal documents that way. For that reason it is crucial to have a handling system for your mail that you see it quickly. All ours gets scanned for us and we check nightly, then request any be sent that we need. Should you have been called? Yes, but it wouldn't have served as legal notice. Should the agent have contacted you? Yes, but this wasn't something generated from the agent's office. You cannot depend on others to keep you out of trouble. They don't always do the job as you think they should. The insurer owes you 30 days notice and it's critical you see your mail within less time than that. There are other legal notices from different sources that don't even give you 30 days, as few as 10.

For anyone with problems seeing their mail quickly, I recommend St. Brendan's or similar. We hate that there is any snail mail as we try to do everything online. We get none of our bills by snail mail. We pay none by mail. So nearly everything we get by mail is some sort of official document. Property taxes, insurance notices, public meetings on zoning, notices of tree overhanging street too low (yes, that is one and 14 days to remedy and provide proof). Ironically, almost all the snail mail items are those that one can least afford to miss. Now with some insurers you can get email notices on certain things.

We actually have an employee do for us what St. Brendan's does.
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Old 10-11-2016, 11:45 AM   #35
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Pau Hana, "Progressive doesn't cover liveaboards- if you are a liveaboard and knew this"

I answered the questions in the agents office, gave her a check.
Did you read your policy? Did it say anything?

I've known agents to play games too. Asking questions in a way to be able to put the check mark where they desire. I've also heard many times comments to just answer what you're asked. You're not seeing what the agent is entering. However, they should give you a printout of all items answered, but often they don't give you the actual "detailed application" they just entered. That can be a real problem especially from inexperienced commissioned sales agents. Now we have those companies doing it all by phone. No thanks. I require a copy of the policy before I sign and on boat coverage it greatly influenced me. One of the largest told all the things that separated them from others. However, their policy had exclusions I wouldn't live with.

The written document governs. Proving that an agent told you this or you told them that is nearly impossible, and even if you do then that goes back against the agency under errors and omissions, not the insurer.
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Old 10-11-2016, 11:47 AM   #36
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Don't even begin to attempt to lecture me about the ethics of insurance company practices.
Mule, it's not the insurance company ethics that are in question here. You bought a policy, failed to read and understand it and then complain that you were dropped and without coverage. Now you publicly state that you didn't "know to lie" to the insurance company to keep your policy in effect. Your policy was fraudulently maintained by your failure to disclose accurately your liveaboard status from the start of living aboard.

Seems like you brought this on yourself then you want to lie to keep it going. Most honest folks would have chalked this up to a learning experience and changed the way they shop for and purchase insurance. If you want to teach someone a lesson, start within.
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