I got 99 problems, and lack of HIN is like, 86 of 'em

[Wayfarer]

EDIT: The situation has resolved itself. The bank is playing ball, and I'mma buy me a boat!

I honestly feel a bit foolish posting this issue while people in the Bahamas have REAL problems, but here it is.

I'm still trying to buy Sylphide. I was hoping to have closed yesterday. I was hoping to be in Toronto right now, taking ownership of her. Instead, I'm still home, surrounded by boxes upon boxes of my packed up house.

We've waded through the stinky cesspit of bureaucracy up to the point where we're all just waiting for my bank to give the go ahead and lend me the loot.

The problem is that the boat was never issued a Hull Identification Number. I'm not sure how the Manufacturer got away with that, being that she's a 1985 build, and the law stating that all boats must have a HIN went into effect in 1982, but I suppose that's a moot point. If the manufacturer was still in business, we could get a HIN from them, but they're not. She was built by Kingston Aluminum Yacht, which was somehow dissolved to form what is now MetalCraft a few years after my boat was built. As MetalCraft technically didn't exist when she was built, they can't/won't issue us a HIN. There is no other avenue to assign a new HIN in the Canadian system.

Okay, well, I can just get a number issued by NY state, right? Yes I can, and it's pretty straightforward. The problem with that is, I can't get that number until I take ownership of the boat. According to the bank, however, they can't lend me money to buy the boat without a HIN. So it's a real chicken-and-egg type catch-22 situation here.

All I really need is a little leeway from the bank, maybe a week or so to allow me to get this stupid number, but I don't know if they're going to allow it.
I offered to let the bank send someone to ride the boat and hold a gun to my head until I got the new HIN, but that didn't seem to help.

I've looked around at other states that might allow me to assign a HIN to the boat, but they all have the same policy that I have to own the boat before a HIN can be assigned, which is perfectly reasonable.

I've put a lot of effort an energy into this already, and it might all be about to fall apart. It's got me feeling pretty frustrated and dejected. I'm so close, and it's just this tiny piece of minutia that could derail this whole thing. I just don't know what other options I might have, short of starting from scratch with another lender. Even then, I could very well end up in the same predicament after wasting another month.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[menzies]

Dave, did you look at the top right of the transom just in case? Also there are often "secret" secondary HIN locations on the boat.

Did you call your equivalent of the DMV and ask them if they could apply a HIN to the boat.

Finally, how did the current owner handle loans, registration etc?

 

[Comodave]

Boy, that sucks. I am not familiar with the Canadian system. How do they register a boat there without a HIN or something similar? Maybe a home equity loan or are you selling out and moving aboard? Is the bank a marine lender or not too familiar with boat loans. I would think if they are a marine lender they would have a work around. Sorry to hear of this problem. Good luck.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Did you try to contact Transport Canada about your issue? I am not an expert but if I a right they are able to issue HIN numbers. As an example my boat was custom made by a guy (no shipyard) but the builder requested a HIN that was issued by Transport Canada after an inspection for conformity.

L

 

[w8n4sun]

If you cannot find the secondary HIN, is paying cash an option? Even if short term to just get the boat delivered to you so your local licensing agency can issue a new HIN?


Good luck!

 

[Comodave]

I would try the Transport Canada idea along with some serious sucking up... Maybe get the seller to get the HIN for you. I am sure he wants the boat sold so he should be as helpful as possible. And maybe a bit more sucking up.

 

[Wayfarer]

Dave, did you look at the top right of the transom just in case? Also there are often "secret" secondary HIN locations on the boat.

Did you call your equivalent of the DMV and ask them if they could apply a HIN to the boat.

Finally, how did the current owner handle loans, registration etc?

I checked for it when she was out of the water, as did the surveyor. He noted that there wasn't one, and the owner confirmed that she didn't have one. The surveyor said that it was common enough, and with that, we didn't press the issue any farther.

From what the documentation service tells me, and from the research I've done, it's actually the NY state department of parks and rec that issues HINs. It's apparently a very painless process, but I do have to own the boat first.

The current owner didn't need to finance as far as I know, and apparently Transport Canada didn't have a problem documenting the boat without the HIN.

 

[Wayfarer]

Boy, that sucks. I am not familiar with the Canadian system. How do they register a boat there without a HIN or something similar? Maybe a home equity loan or are you selling out and moving aboard? Is the bank a marine lender or not too familiar with boat loans. I would think if they are a marine lender they would have a work around. Sorry to hear of this problem. Good luck.

The system in Canada seems to be that if a boat doesn't have a HIN, and one can't be obtained from the manufacturer, then that's all there is to it. There's no system or process in place to issue a new HIN.

The plan was to sell the house and live aboard, so for simplicity's sake, I was hoping to avoid a home equity loan. It may still come to that, but it'll take a lot longer. The bank is just the local community bank, and is not a marine lender.

 

[Comodave]

Dave,

Great name by the way, I would ask the current owner to get a HIN issued. It isn’t just your problem, it is also his problem if he wants to sell it. There has to be a way in Canada to get a HIN issued just like in the states. Put the burden on him.

 

[Wayfarer]

Did you try to contact Transport Canada about your issue? I am not an expert but if I a right they are able to issue HIN numbers. As an example my boat was custom made by a guy (no shipyard) but the builder requested a HIN that was issued by Transport Canada after an inspection for conformity.

L

I did contact Transport Canada to ask about this, but they were adamant that they do not issue HINs, as that is the responsibility of the manufacturer. If the manufacturer can't supply one, then the boat just doesn't get one.

I asked how a home built boat would apply for a HIN, but she said that since this isn't a home build, it wouldn't apply.

 

[Comodave]

If one absolutely can’t be issued in Canada, make up a HIN plate and stick it on the boat... follow the convention and maybe no one ever notices...

 

[menzies]

Dave, did he have it registered in Canada or licensed? Maybe check here and put in the vessel name and see if the "Official Number" comes up.

https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/4/vrqs-srib/eng/vessel-registrations

 

[Comodave]

Dave,

Try Cindy Lewis at Sterling Financial 410-903-6611 and see if she thinks she has a boat lender that can let you get the boat financed and back to NY and then get a HIN issued. She was very good to work with when we bought our boat.

 

[Wayfarer]

False alarm! I just got the call that the bank has come to it's senses, and we'll be closing tomorrow morning. I'll be getting myself a HIN from NYS department of parks and rec sometime in the next week or so, and all will be settled.

As always, thank you for the efforts of the brain trust. It really does help!

 

[Comodave]

Well that is good news and sensible news at that. I am glad it is working out for you. Now I can stop scheming a way to help you.

 

[menzies]

Congrats.

Don't close on it until Dorian passes by!

 

[Action]

Identification is necessary.

And possession does not mean ownership of a vessel or a vehicle. To own something like that requires identity of the thing. And that is what the bank is looking for as well. If the bank is going to use the vessel as security, how do they identify that specific vessel is the security if there is no identification of the vessel.

As to assigning a HIN, it is painless in at least 3 western states that I have done it or assisted in getting it done.

 

[Action]

That happens when the bank has trust in you.

 

[Pack Mule]

That’s great news Dave. I was just reading through all the posts and talking with my wife about it.

 

[w8n4sun]

Whew, recommence excitement for you!

 

[Jeff F]

Interesting. I have a custom aluminum sailboat built in 2001 with no HIN. I had no issues transferring the Ontario licence when I bought the boat. It doesn't seem to be an issue here.

Glad you got it resolved.

 

[Ski in NC]

I built my boat from scratch in 2004-2006. No HIN issued. It does have the USCG doc number in the engine room, but that is it. Granted, I have not tried to sell it either.

 

[High Wire]

What did they put on the registration? Leave it blank?
There has to be something to register or document the boat.
FWIW HINs started in 1971 or 72 in the US.

 

[Pau Hana]

What did they put on the registration? Leave it blank?
There has to be something to register or document the boat.
FWIW HINs started in 1971 or 72 in the US.

The vessel has the Transport Canada official number (I just re-read the survey and did the insurance) so the bank is probably using that as the official number till the vessel is registered in the US.

 

[Wayfarer]

Well that is good news and sensible news at that. I am glad it is working out for you. Now I can stop scheming a way to help you.

I look forward to our next evil plot/scheme collaboration.

Congrats.

Don't close on it until Dorian passes by!

I know, right? Seems like we might all get a little taste of this one.

That happens when the bank has trust in you.

Hopefully my credit score will speak to that! Also, I did offer to let them hold me ransom at gunpoint, so maybe it did help after all... lol

That’s great news Dave. I was just reading through all the posts and talking with my wife about it.

I sure am excited!

Whew, recommence excitement for you!

It's been quite a roller coaster this last couple of days. My brain has more or less turned to creamed corn.

Interesting. I have a custom aluminum sailboat built in 2001 with no HIN. I had no issues transferring the Ontario licence when I bought the boat. It doesn't seem to be an issue here.

Glad you got it resolved.

Me too! It seems that the Canadian government is far more relaxed when it comes to this sort of thing. The poor US customs official I spoke with just couldn't comprehend that It didn't have a HIN. He practically went Microsoft blue-screen-of-death on me. Pretty sure he needed a nap after I got off the phone.

I built my boat from scratch in 2004-2006. No HIN issued. It does have the USCG doc number in the engine room, but that is it. Granted, I have not tried to sell it either.

It might not even be an issue if/when you do sell it, so long as the buyer doesn't need financing. The bank was the nervous party here. Of course, the bank I'm using has basically never done this before, so a more experienced marine lender might not have an issue with it.

What did they put on the registration? Leave it blank?
There has to be something to register or document the boat.
FWIW HINs started in 1971 or 72 in the US.

The HIN was just blank on all of the documentation I've seen. She had an official number from Transport Canada, but that's it.

 

[Wayfarer]

The vessel has the Transport Canada official number (I just re-read the survey and did the insurance) so the bank is probably using that as the official number till the vessel is registered in the US.

By the way, if anyone is looking for an insurance expert, this guy right here is the one you want. He's been one of the highlights of this whole process.

Thanks for being awesome Pete!

 

[Pau Hana]

By the way, if anyone is looking for an insurance expert, this guy right here is the one you want. He's been one of the highlights of this whole process.

Thanks for being awesome Pete!

Appreciate the kind words, Dave...as well as the HIN brainstorming session!

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo excited for you.

I can just feel your excitement through your posts and I do understand. You've worked hard to get here, found your perfect boat, and tomorrow you will own it.

 

[Crusty Chief]

Ye Haw!!!!

Glad it all worked out for ya! Best of luck on the trip home with your new pride and joy!

And yes, Peter is the bomb!

 

[markpierce]

Shouldn't these issues been identified and checked out before purchase?