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Old 06-25-2014, 03:24 PM   #21
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I don't care for big government and I'm not taking the side of the legislation or attempting to comment on this bills integrity. But I do understand that there is a problem and what they are attempting to accomplish.

How to fairly apply taxes in this state has always been a struggle and dealing with abandoned boats, someone has to pay, there is no free ride? More and more boats are just set adrift or left on beaches, marinas and fiberglass hulls don't disintegrate rapidly.

As a Washington resident, my annual license fees aren't that bad, car is around $40 and boat is about $200. But we also have top flight roads and public marinas and no State income tax.

We are a "sales tax state" and "no state income tax." Oregon next door is the opposite, a "State income tax" with "no sales tax." We're also on the "doorstep" to Alaska and many people live here and work in Alaska. So you see a lot of Alaska and Oregon licensed cars, motor homes, airplanes and boats here that rarely if ever leave the state. Living between Alaska and Oregon there are those who want to take advantage of the different tax laws and become "Tax Evaders." It's a problem for both states.

Unfortunately, real tourists get caught up in the mess and get hassled over their tax status. That part is too bad, but I can also appreciate the state fining one of our Washington residents who purchases and licensed $500,000 motorhome in Oregon and garaged it here.

So how do you apply the tax laws fairly and yet allow for those who are truly "tourist" non residents????
Good post and really can't disagree. There are a lot of Washingtonians that are crapping their drawers right now. Over half of the boats in a yacht club just up river from me have their boats registered in Oregon.
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Old 06-25-2014, 03:24 PM   #22
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In Washington, what's to keep someone from moving their boat every few weeks/months to avoid reporting? Seems like a good middle-man business to get into.
Some of that probably happens, but the state, cities and counties here share in the license tax revenues generated and share information and enforcement.

So if you are lets say. . . . fishing or crabbing and are checked by WDFW and you're on an Oregon licensed boat, registered to you and you present a Washington resident fishing license. . . . there will be "trouble in River City."
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Old 06-25-2014, 09:48 PM   #23
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Every government, state or country, taxes and they all do it differently. Who is to decide what is fair or not. Mississippi collects big money on car registrations as opposed to other ways. Some car registrations are as much as $500 or $700 or more per year. Because people, especially those living near state lines, would tend to try schemes to register in other states, that is a felony in Mississippi.

Only two things you can be sure of, death and taxes.
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Old 06-25-2014, 10:04 PM   #24
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GFC, the letter the yacht club recieved does NOT state the requirement is for boats larger than 65ft. I'll send it to you as soon as I get it scanned. Trying to find a scanner. If I can I will also post it.
Tom, I got a copy of the letter they sent out, but here is the text from the actual bill.....

"
17 NEW SECTION.
Sec. 101. A new section is added to chapter 79.100
18 RCW to read as follows:
19 (1) Any individual or company that purchases or otherwise receives
20 a used vessel greater than sixty-five feet in length and more than
21 forty years old must, prior to or concurrent with the transfer of
22 ownership, secure a marine insurance policy consistent with this
23 section. Proof of the marine insurance policy must be provided to:
24 (a) The transferor of the vessel upon purchase; and
25 (b) If applicable, the department of licensing upon registration or

26 the department of revenue upon the payment of any taxes.
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Old 06-25-2014, 10:30 PM   #25
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Sorry, I had to leave this page to eat dinner.

Tom, I haven't read beyond page 8 of the bill. I will try to find time this weekend to finish it and see what other wonderful gems it contains.

If you want to read it for yourself, go to access.wa.gov and do a search on HB 2457.
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:08 PM   #26
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Guys, just a reminder to avoid the political in this relevant and interesting discussion concerning boating and taxes. If we can avoid politics, religion, guns and anchors, there won't be a need to edit, delete or move the posts.

Thanks for your help in keeping it on track and within bounds.
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:20 PM   #27
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The 65' / 21 year old stuff is for the derelicts. It's to prevent someone selling a derelict to a guy in a bar for $5.

The marina registration is different, but something my yacht club already does along with insurance. It's all on automatic reminders, et cetera.
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:43 PM   #28
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The 65' / 21 year old stuff is for the derelicts. It's to prevent someone selling a derelict to a guy in a bar for $5.

The marina registration is different, but something my yacht club already does along with insurance. It's all on automatic reminders, et cetera.
Actually what has been happening in Florida is boat deserted at a marina. Marina owner facing huge expense in moving and disposing of it sells it for nearly nothing or even gives it to unsuspecting soul, sometimes by ebay, sometimes Craigslist, sometimes even homeless people. They go to move it, get it to see, it sinks. Now a $500,000 salvage job exists and marina and previous owner got off the hook.

Washington has faced a lot of deserted fishing boats and is spending big money each year to destruct them. Last year three were pulled ashore in Westport, crushed to pieces using track loaders, and put into dumpsters and hauled off.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:55 AM   #29
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So if all of this is to minimize derelict boats sunk or washed up in a bog, where's the teeth to put the responsibility on the owner(s) instead of taxpayers? I'd love to see less bones along the shores, but is this going to accomplish that?
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Old 06-26-2014, 01:52 PM   #30
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So if all of this is to minimize derelict boats sunk or washed up in a bog, where's the teeth to put the responsibility on the owner(s) instead of taxpayers? I'd love to see less bones along the shores, but is this going to accomplish that?
I don't think it all is to minimize derelict boats. Plus we're talking multiple sections of the law. Multiple purposes.
-Minimize derelict vessels sold
-Protect purchasers from spending large amounts on boats not seaworthy
-Reduce vessels not seaworthy and insured for liability
-Increase revenues
-Insure compliance with registration laws and tax laws
-Fairness to those who do comply already with laws
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:46 PM   #31
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Sorry, I had to leave this page to eat dinner.

Tom, I haven't read beyond page 8 of the bill. I will try to find time this weekend to finish it and see what other wonderful gems it contains.

If you want to read it for yourself, go to access.wa.gov and do a search on HB 2457.
Hey Mike,

The State is using this bill as the authority to issue the letter demanding all this information.
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:47 PM   #32
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Guys, just a reminder to avoid the political in this relevant and interesting discussion concerning boating and taxes. If we can avoid politics, religion, guns and anchors, there won't be a need to edit, delete or move the posts.

Thanks for your help in keeping it on track and within bounds.
Good point and its a great discussion.
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:49 PM   #33
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Actually what has been happening in Florida is boat deserted at a marina. Marina owner facing huge expense in moving and disposing of it sells it for nearly nothing or even gives it to unsuspecting soul, sometimes by ebay, sometimes Craigslist, sometimes even homeless people. They go to move it, get it to see, it sinks. Now a $500,000 salvage job exists and marina and previous owner got off the hook.

Washington has faced a lot of deserted fishing boats and is spending big money each year to destruct them. Last year three were pulled ashore in Westport, crushed to pieces using track loaders, and put into dumpsters and hauled off.
Again, the letter to the marinas has absolutly noting to do with deserted or derilict boats. Its all about revenue.
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Old 06-26-2014, 04:22 PM   #34
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The 65' / 21 year old stuff is for the derelicts. It's to prevent someone selling a derelict to a guy in a bar for $5.

The marina registration is different, but something my yacht club already does along with insurance. It's all on automatic reminders, et cetera.
This is the incident that is often cited as, "the straw that broke the camels back" as far as the derelict vessel portion of the law. There was another incident which predated this one, an abandoned large wooden tug which was allowed to sink in the shallows of Fidalgo Bay near Anacortes, Wa. and rested there for years.

Derelict vessel catches fire and sinks in Whidbey Island's Penn Cove | Seattle Maritime Injury Blog
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Old 06-26-2014, 04:58 PM   #35
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This is the incident that is often cited as, "the straw that broke the camels back" as far as the derelict vessel portion of the law.

Derelict vessel catches fire and sinks in Whidbey Island's Penn Cove | Seattle Maritime Injury Blog

What, if any, was the final remediation of this case?
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Old 06-26-2014, 06:16 PM   #36
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Again, the letter to the marinas has absolutly noting to do with deserted or derilict boats. Its all about revenue.
As I said there are different reasons and we're talking about different items. The insurance issue on over 65' is completely separate from the registration and tax letter. And you're right, that is for revenue and compliance. States require revenue. They have laws. And now they're trying to enforce that law.
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Old 06-26-2014, 06:57 PM   #37
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What, if any, was the final remediation of this case?
Seems like the boat owner Rory Westmoreland has a long and troubled past when dealing with Hazmat. This is totally unrelated to the sinking:

Attorney General’s Office files environmental crimes charges against King County man

As far as the sinking, the boat was raised and scrapped. DOE and the State are suing Mr. Westmoreland to recover costs and damages. (below)

Arson cited as cause of Penn Cove ship fire - South Whidbey Record
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Old 06-26-2014, 07:35 PM   #38
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Seems like the boat owner Rory Westmoreland has a long and troubled past when dealing with Hazmat. This is totally unrelated to the sinking:

Attorney General’s Office files environmental crimes charges against King County man

As far as the sinking, the boat was raised and scrapped. DOE and the State are suing Mr. Westmoreland to recover costs and damages. (below)

Arson cited as cause of Penn Cove ship fire - South Whidbey Record
And they can file all they want to but doubt they're ever see any money. That's the problem. Generally derelict boats aren't left by people with the money to pay. They problem to start with was they couldn't afford disposing of it properly.
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:12 AM   #39
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Here is the response I recieved from Recreational Boating Association of Washington:

Hi Thomas:
Thank you for your email. RBAW was quite involved in the 2014 Derelict Vessel bill during this past winter and like most bills, there there were compromises in several areas before the bill became law.

RBAW pushed for and was successful at getting commercial vessels to contribute to the derelict vessel removal fund for the first time ever. Prior to this, the burden for funding derelict vessel removal fund has fallen to the recreational boats only.

On the other hand, we have heard concerns about private rights and the record keeping requirements from many. We are working with the Northwest Marine Trade Association who represents many commercial marinas, and the Department of Revenue to ensure the implementation is reasonable. There also appears to be some direction on the part of commercial marinas to propose changes to the record keeping requirements in the coming session of the Legislature. We will know more about how this all fits together as we get into the fall.

We appreciate your input and please keep RBAW appraised of any and all concerns you may have. Thanks again
- Steve

Steve Greaves
RBAW President
206-371-0486


----- Original Message -----
From: Teseniar,Thomas A
To: sgreaves@portagebaysystems.com ; bob_ranzenbach@yahoo.com ; paul.thorpe@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 12:44 PM
Subject: Moorage Taxes
Good Afternoon All,
I was able to get this letter from the Longview Yacht Club and this is not settling well with its members. Especially the fact the Commodore must now keep records.
As a member RBAW I find this letter very disturbing and seems like I am taxed enough, let along the State now having all my private information and placing burdens on marinas and yacht clubs.
Please see attached
Thomas Teseniar

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Old 06-27-2014, 12:11 PM   #40
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........... As a member RBAW I find this letter very disturbing and seems like I am taxed enough, let along the State now having all my private information and placing burdens on marinas and yacht clubs ..........
I'm with you on the burden placed on marinas and yacht clubs. If the state wants this information it should be paying the costs of compiling and submitting it.

As far as the state having all your personal information, I can pretty much guarantee that it has all the personal information on you that it wants or needs and can get any other information it wants on you pretty easily and quickly.
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