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Old 10-07-2019, 06:49 PM   #81
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Hi B&B. Thanks. And sorry for my confusion. -Greg
Don't worry about confusion. It's the most populated state there is.
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:12 PM   #82
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No you are not criminals just mistaken because you don't understand the law. Your boat cannot be titled by state law and by USCG documentation at the same time. It is you, the taxpayer, that is "registered" with the state as being responsible for the personal property tax on the value of the boat that you own. Your state "registration" for tax purposed, if you want to call it that, has nothing to do with title to the property. If you don't believe that just try to get a loan on it or sell it to someone. Again gkesden has the right take on this. Try to understand what he has written.
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:36 PM   #83
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You stated the registration with the State of Washington is a USCG requirement. This is not true. You may register with any state however this will invalidate your USCG documentation. You can't have both. You may retain your USCG documentation by notifying Washington State Dept. of Taxation of your boats presence in the state for personal property tax purposes. This does not constitute "state registration and you will not receive state numbers to display on the bow of the boat. You will receive some kind of decal or display to show state tax collectors, who prowl the marines and anchorages, that you are set up to the state taxes. In may opinion giving up or invalidating USCG documentation is really stupid.
Here is where you said that if the boat is ďregistered with any state however it will invalidate your USCG documentation ď. That is simply not true. You can register a documented vessel, you just canít display the numbers. I have my boat documented and registered with Michigan. But the boat is not titled with Michigan. You canít have a boat federally documented and titled with a state. You are now changing what you are said previously. Now you are talking title instead of registered.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:02 PM   #84
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No you are not criminals just mistaken because you don't understand the law. Your boat cannot be titled by state law and by USCG documentation at the same time. It is you, the taxpayer, that is "registered" with the state as being responsible for the personal property tax on the value of the boat that you own. Your state "registration" for tax purposed, if you want to call it that, has nothing to do with title to the property. If you don't believe that just try to get a loan on it or sell it to someone. Again gkesden has the right take on this. Try to understand what he has written.
I never said anything about it being titled. I've been clear it couldn't be titled. I has to be registered. I'll call it registration because that's what it is. I use the appropriate terms and don't switch when I get caught wrong like you have. Again, registration has nothing to do with property tax either. Florida requires registration and has no property tax on boats. I fully understand. Don't try that BS with me.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:34 PM   #85
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One must follow state boat-registration and taxation laws. Documenting a recreational vessel with USCG is always an option if it is at least net five "tons," but not all states require registration of federally documented boats. Simple as that.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:44 PM   #86
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If an owner registered (titled) a boat with a state agency and affixed state ID numbers on the bow of that boat while it was USCG documented that documentation would have been invalidated. The USCG may never know this or notify the owner unless they board the vessel and find state ID numbers along with a Documentation Certificate. If an owner signed up with a state agency to pay personnel property tax on the value of that boat and did not receive state numbers to affix to the bow, but instead got a decal or sticker, it was solely for tax purposes and the USCG documentation would remain valid. USCG regulations prohibit a documented vessel from displaying state registration numbers but they do not prohibit the display of the tax sticker or decal.
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:29 AM   #87
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If an owner registered (titled) a boat with a state agency and affixed state ID numbers on the bow of that boat while it was USCG documented that documentation would have been invalidated. The USCG may never know this or notify the owner unless they board the vessel and find state ID numbers along with a Documentation Certificate. If an owner signed up with a state agency to pay personnel property tax on the value of that boat and did not receive state numbers to affix to the bow, but instead got a decal or sticker, it was solely for tax purposes and the USCG documentation would remain valid. USCG regulations prohibit a documented vessel from displaying state registration numbers but they do not prohibit the display of the tax sticker or decal.
You just love inventing law. First, affixing the state numbers would not invalidate the Documentation. Documentation overrides. There would be a ticketable offense for affixing numbers to a documented boat.

Paying property taxes and registration are not connected and are typically not even within the same department.

The purpose is irrelevant. Now you're agreeing with what we've said regarding registration being legal but you're claiming you don't mean registration, you mean Title and it's about property taxes even though Florida doesn't have property taxes on boats.
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:45 AM   #88
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Hey ProMaritime,

I appreciate you trying to help folks out. And, you are most certainly correct that a documented vessel shouldn't display state numbers but should do any required state paperwork, pay any necessary fees and taxes, and display a state sticker, as required. So, you've got the mechanics down pat -- and that is a lot better than some who occasionally post suggesting that state paperwork can or should be avoided for federally documented vessels!

But, what I think people are reacting to is a very narrow technical point. It is this bit: "registered (titled)".

I know it is a small point, but folks here tend to be sticklers. Call us pedantic, if you'd like. But, titling and registering aren't the same thing, and expressing an idea as "registered (titled)" suggests, at least to some, that they are.

One of my old law professors liked to say that "property isn't a thing, it is a bundle of rights and responsibilities". These rights and responsibilities are known as "title" of the property. One type of title, the "legal title", includes the rights and responsibilities of ownership, e.g. the ability to buy and sell. Another type of title, "equitable title" includes various rights of use and enjoyment retained from the legal title, e.g. access to the property. With vessels, unlike real property, the two types of title go are all part of legal title.

When buying or selling a house, ownership is conveyed by a document called a deed that transfers the title. This deed is then recorded in a record with the one proper custodian for the jurisdiction. This way, if someone wants to know who has title to a real property, they go to the one custodian, and look in the deed book.

With vessels and vehicles, there aren't really deeds, just title records or documents. These record who has title (legal and equitable, as one) to the property.

Since this type of record is important, there needs to be one custodian. In the case of vehicles, for example, they are titled by the state (except for federal vehicles, diplomatic vehicles, etc) and can only be titled in one state at a time. In the case vessels, the state is the custodian of record -- except for documented vessels, for which the federal government preempts state jurisdiction.

So, a USCG document, and a state title document or electronic record, are each documents describing who has the title of a vessel. Because there can only be one answer to this question, the title has to be recorded with the feds or the state, but not both. For certain vessels, one must record with the feds. For certain vessels, one must record with the state. For certain vessels one gets to pick. And, for certain vessels, title need not be recorded at all.

Registering is the process of entering information into an official record. It doesn't involve altering or creating that information. So, when one registers a car or vessel, one is telling the proper official about it, e.g. who owns it, their address, etc. But, one can't use the registration process to alter that information. I am who I am, I live where I live, and I own what I own. When I register a vehicle or vessel, I am simply entering whatever information is required (and/or optionally provided) by me into an official record. In many cases the information I enter won't be accepted without proof, e.g. I might not be able to register a vessel without a title, document, or proof of sale, etc.

Maintaining a record of title is critical to ensuring that the legal (and/or equitable) title holders of property can be credible determined.

Registration is critical to enabling other interests of the state, such as being able to contact an owner in the vent of emergency or liability, ensuring compliance with insurance laws, ensuring those registering are informed of critical local information, and/or collecting fees and other taxes.

As a non-vessel example, I bought my car in PA, and lived in CA for a couple of years. While in CA, I registered my car in CA -- but it remained titled in PA. Upon my return to PA a couple of years later, I reregistered it in PA, where it already happened to be titled.

As a vessel example, many "cruisers" have their vessels titled and registered in whatever area they call (or once called) their land home. And, while cruising as transients spending only brief periods in any state, that may be fine. But, if they hang out ion one state for too long (like Florida), they may need to register there, too. Unlike titling, there is no problem being registered in more than one state, so long as it is allowed (or required) by the local law.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that in normal conversations one might use words like register and title in an imprecise way, people here tend to be sticklers. They are different things. And, if one is casual about the distinction, well, that will often be observed.

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Old 10-08-2019, 05:37 AM   #89
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I'm piling on now.

It's my understanding that if you're documented there are plenty of places that you have to be state registered.

They're not supposed to give you a title, however they do because they have no clue what the US Coast Guard is about and what the US Coast Guard does. New Jersey gave me something that seems like a title ,maybe it's not but just looks like one, and I told him they're not supposed to .....they really don't care.

Sending the title to the Coast Guard would probably be the proper thing but good luck with that.

When I went to register my boat the HIN number on the Coast Guard documentation was missing two letters or numbers and the state refused to register the boat. So they were out the sales tax for almost a year until the Coast Guard sent me a new documentation with the correct HIN number. I asked why the DMV would not contact the Coast Guard and they said "we don't do that."

As to saying something on formums for years .... doesn't make you right just makes you consistent. Usually if you post links that clearly explain your point it helps ... when others post links that clearly explain your point is incorrect .....that doesn't help so much.
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Old 10-08-2019, 07:48 AM   #90
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The key differentiators between Documentation and state Titles and registrations have to with transfer when selling.
If documented that is the form that constitutes transfer of ownership - not any state registration as they should be marked not transferable.
State titles on the other hand are used to transfer ownership.
If anyone has both a federal (documented boat) and a state title they would do well to get one eliminated or it could become an issue re clear title when selling... I'd hate to buy a boat and get a state title signed over only to find the seller still held the federal title via documentation.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:29 PM   #91
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... They're not supposed to give you a title, however they do because they have no clue what the US Coast Guard is about and what the US Coast Guard does. New Jersey gave me something that seems like a title ,maybe it's not but just looks like one, and I told him they're not supposed to .....they really don't care.
Yep, what he said. I'll bet 99% of the Fish Game and Parks officers who enforce state boat laws at our marina don't even know what federal documentation is. I keep waiting for a ticket for failure to display my state numbers but they haven't cited me yet. And my banker might be very friendly and helpful and she knows banking and lending very well, but I'll bet she doesn't have the foggiest idea what the CG really does or what federal documentation is all about. Parallel universe. And if psneeld runs into that in New Jersey, where salt water actually breaks on the state shores, then certainly nobody on the prairie, about as far as you can possibly get on the North American continent from ocean water, will have any idea what federal documentation means.

Heck, when I registered -- and titled -- my 10' inflatable dingy here because it had a motor, the DMV clerk (well, county treasurer clerk here) refused the registration at first, didn't think inflatables had to be registered or titled. Then a supervisor told him to take it, then I got a refund in the mail from the state capitol a few weeks later because they said it didn't need to be registered or titled since it was something I could (theoretically) blow up with my lungs -- so back to the treasurer's office I go because I don't want a ticket from F&G as I motor around the river in my 4HP dingy. And here's a kicker -- as a way to control the spread of zebra mussels, the state has now created what they call a "local registration" where they'll waive mussel inspections if your boat is used exclusively on a single body of water. Another sticker, two state registrations, a state title (legitimate or not), a certificate of federal documentation, then of course there's my MMSI number and my FCC ship station license and...

Of course my documentation certificate has me at 21 tons when in fact the boat is 21,000 pounds bone dry and empty, and they have my draft at 7 feet when it's almost precisely half that, but I've written them twice and the letters simply disappeared so I've given up. Makes me feel more manly to have a 21 ton boat anyway.
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Old 10-08-2019, 03:37 PM   #92
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Documentation tonnage and disacement eweight are 2 different things.


USCG tonnage is a number based on cargo volume.... ( Simple explanation)
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:55 PM   #93
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Documentation tonnage and disacement eweight are 2 different things.

USCG tonnage is a number based on cargo volume.... ( Simple explanation)
True, but either way not close. I even sent them this form when I asked for a correction: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...-15-070703-783

...and by the vessel gross tonnage calculators I've seen I still don't get 21 (46 CFR 69 Subpart E, simplified measurement) but oh well. But then tonnage calculation on odd shaped things like recreational boats with flybridges and steps and multiple levels (where I really can't use the rubrail as a nice horizontal boundary for hull height ("depth") like say a Boston Whaler) is slippery I know. Who knows, maybe they got that tonnage from Mainship and it is right.

Uh oh, major thread drift.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:44 AM   #94
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Wow! This thread is more amusing than watching NetFlix!
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:07 PM   #95
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True, but either way not close. I even sent them this form when I asked for a correction: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...-15-070703-783

...and by the vessel gross tonnage calculators I've seen I still don't get 21 (46 CFR 69 Subpart E, simplified measurement) but oh well. But then tonnage calculation on odd shaped things like recreational boats with flybridges and steps and multiple levels (where I really can't use the rubrail as a nice horizontal boundary for hull height ("depth") like say a Boston Whaler) is slippery I know. Who knows, maybe they got that tonnage from Mainship and it is right.

Uh oh, major thread drift.
21 tons GRT sounds reasonable to me. Factor S would be .67, K would be 1, L around 34', B around 12', D around 6.5'. Taking those would give you .67*1*34*12*6.5 so that's very close to 18 without even adding the deckhouse. The deckhouse maybe 10*8*6 would be nearly 5 so I come up with around 23 just guessing.
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