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Old 08-23-2015, 12:10 PM   #81
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I have read my yacht insurance policy..and I don't believe it even discusses whether the boat is documented or not.... so how would they deny a claim over a non-fraudulent paperwork snafu?


Insurance brokers/experts...opinions????.
Ever been involved in an incident related insurance dispute?
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:16 PM   #82
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Ever been involved in an incident related insurance dispute?
Yep...had to testify last fall a couple days before heading to Florida.

And lots of reading on whether insurance companies can deny claims and actually get away with it can almost fill Al Gore's internet.

Sure they can deny...then you sue for coverage...then they realize how weak this argument would be...the boat doesn't even HAVE to be documented....they would probably cover without going past the initial stab.

I think Twistedtree is a retired attorney...I'll bow part way to his thoughts.


This thread is like any other thread where something was heard or read that makes no sense, some info brought in from a couple people at the end of the phone who may or may not have the correct question/let alone answer....


Bottom line is a bunch of us have ignored it,the system seems to ignore it, no one here has ever heard of a real life issue over it, no one except one seems concerned over it....the real answer (the actual law reference or USCG printed interpretation of it) hasn't been found yet or any reference to it....etc...etc..


I think I'll let this one rest till USCG HQ, my attorney and insurance agent have answered my questions.
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:49 PM   #83
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Perhaps it would be helpful for you all to see the original email exchange so you can judge for yourselves. I'll be the first to admit that the opinion I received very well could be proven wrong by people farther up the food chain or by expensive action by a smart lawyer. It can be surprising how often the first person who will respond to a question in an agency will be wrong.

However, if you get boarded by an officer who isn't sure and makes a radio call which results in a phone call, while you are all out there standing in the sun rafted together, this will probably be the answer that comes back. After that, you do the math.

Quote:
You must have the original Certificate of Documentation (COD) or Temporary Certificate of Documentation (TCOD) on board the vessel when operating the vessel. If boarded, you are subject to fines and penalties. The final decision is up to the boarding officer.

Once the paperwork is received the current COD becomes invalid.

Once the COD is issued the vessel name and hailing port stated on the COD must match what is marked on the vessel.

Any further requests must be sent to: NVDC.W.Webmaster@uscg.mil

Our guidance/advice is predicated only upon the information as submitted. If that information proves imprecise or incorrect or changes materially, our guidance/advice may change. We provide definitive guidance relative to vessel documentation only upon the presentation of materials in accordance with the regulations found in 46 CFR Subpart 67.

Barbara A. Dodson
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Please visit USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Home Page for the most recent vessel documentation information, forms, instructions and to subscribe to our list service.


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Long [mailto:roger@cruisingonstrider.us]
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2015 8:39 AM
To: Webmaster, NVDC W
Subject: Documentation Inquiry

Webmaster, please forward this email to the appropriate officer since your site no longer lists an email address for inquiries.

We have just purchased a documented vessel and will be filing for an exchange of documentation next week which will include a change of name and hailing port.

The broker told us that the NVDC is running “weeks to months” behind in issuing COD’s or even TCOD’s and that we should simply carry a copy of the existing COD and a copy of our application aboard the vessel to show a boarding officer until we receive our final document.

Was this advice accurate?

We need to plan for work to be done to the topsides of the vessel so it would be helpful to know the proper time to change the vessel’s markings.

May we change the vessel’s name and hailing port immediately according to the exchange application or do we need to wait until the NVDC has processed the paperwork and issued either a TCOD or COD?

Thank you,
Roger Long
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:54 PM   #84
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Use of the word recreational or voluntary may have changed the answer....looks pretty stock for a vessel that HAS to be documented commercial reasons.


Wearing the uniform for 23 years helps me think like a bureaucrat to fill in THEIR sometimes overlooked blanks....
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Old 08-23-2015, 01:15 PM   #85
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Use of the word recreational or voluntary may have changed the answer....
Well, that is an excellent point. I should have made that clear in my first email.

However, when I talked to the fellow in the local district I know I was very clear to him that this was a recreational vessel because I described our whole situation. He said he would make a phone call and get back to me. He did and the answer was exactly the same.

As I'm sure you know, they operate a lot on precedent, just like the rest of the legal system. This is actually a relatively new situation since the NVDC used to function very well. It's possible that the case on the ground that will set the precedent just hasn't come up yet. If my conversation with the district guy had been taking place in a boarding on the water, or if he had been fielding a radio call from a JG seeking guidance, the rest of the events would almost certainly have been determined by what I was told in both the email and on the phone. I wouldn't expect otherwise from a responsible and professional USCG boarding officer.
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Old 08-23-2015, 01:38 PM   #86
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This discussion has been pretty amusing to me. We've had at least two other extensive threads on this topic over the past year, and I was initially interested because last October we bought our first documented boat and it took about 8 months to have the bill of sale processed and the new documentation issued. A number of us in that previous thread noted that federal documentation, at least for recreational boats, has really become just a way to give your boat a little more nautical chache', make it a little saltier, but it's really become practically meaningless, and maybe more of a hassle than it's worth.

My bank doesn't even know or understand what federal boat documentation is, and I'm sure they don't care (granted, Midwestern bank), they just care about a state title and that they're listed as lienholder. Our water cops (Game Fish & Parks) don't know what fed documentation is, or means. (I am a liitle surprised we havent been ticketed for no state registration numbers on the hull, but I bet that will happen eventually.) Ditto with my insurance company (State Farm), even after paying a small claim when we were operating the boat in Massachusetts. The media certainly doesn't care, probably because boaters are the evil rich, even though this situation is such rank gov't incompetency that if I were a reporter I'd still do a juicy story on it. Finally, we haven't taken the boat across an international border yet, but I have yet to hear at least in North America that any country's customs officers won't accept state registration just as readily as fed documentation, or that they'll sweat the fed documentation mess. I do remember that dust-up in Mexico last year where they were impounding boats over permit and documentation issues, but most of what I read was that state reg docs were sufficient.

It just seems this embarrassing, Kafka-esque, Soviet-bureaucracy, third-world- country, utterly incompetent mess with fed boat documentation doesn't really matter. Oh, but don't forget to send in your new $26 annual renewal fee that was supposed magically correct all of this.
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Old 08-23-2015, 02:06 PM   #87
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A number of us in that previous thread noted that federal documentation, at least for recreational boats, has really become just a way to give your boat a little more nautical chache', make it a little saltier, but it's really become practically meaningless, and maybe more of a hassle than it's worth.
I've given thought to this as well. The big plus to Documenting my sailboat when I got it was that it was "free" to renew. Now that it costs $26 a year, and has to be renewed every year, and that I never plan on international travel. . .if I buy another boat, I'm not sure I would document it.

In Virginia at least, you pay sales tax regardless. . .titling costs $7, and registration is $45 for a 40'+ boat and is good for 3 years. Documenting costs $85 or $120 up front, then $26 a year to renew. . .only plus to Documenting I can see is not having stickers on the bow Also that I can get a temp registration faxed to me in a couple of hours the day of submitting the paper work.

Am I missing something?
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Old 08-23-2015, 02:25 PM   #88
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Am I missing something?
That's it, I don't think you're missing anything at all. Some people even cite the value of a clear chain of ownership with federal documentation. Nonsense, it doesn't even provide that anymore. Our doc transfer when we purchased our boat still showed an outstanding lien (mortgage in federal terms) by the previous owner that he had paid off in 2012, filed the satisfaction in 2013, but they never removed it. We financed our boat, insured it, state titled it, registered it, got a new mmsi number, and got all the FCC licenses we needed all while the fed registry showed the wrong owner and a lien that had been satisfied two years before. For recreational boats, in my opinion fed documentation and the registry is pretty much meaningless.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:54 AM   #89
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The latest from the NVDC:

I just managed to get a very harried sounding woman on the phone at NVDC.

She said I should have received an immediate automated receipt to the email filing I made Friday. If I didn’t, which I did not, then “something isn’t working right in the system”. It sounds therefore, that my Friday re-submission was bounced into the phantom zone.

I mentioned my email to the webmaster asking for live receipt confirmation and she said they are presently reading the emails from 13 August. I infer therefore, that no one will even check to see if my submission went into the system until about 4 September.

I asked what the current backlog and timeline was for TCOD’S and she said they are currently making no promises or giving out any timelines on TCOD or COD deliveries. I said this is a problem because I can’t move the boat until I get a certificate. She said, “That’s right.”

I asked, “Are we talking weeks or months here?”

She said, “I can’t say.”
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Old 08-24-2015, 11:36 AM   #90
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I'll bet THIS is the latest....


Spoke to Anita working at the NVDC at 1130 this morning. Not harried at all when I kindly explained the dilemma we are having here.


She said it is common to give the advice that you are supposed to wait for your COD to show up because it is mainly about vessels that NEED to be documented and dealing with the public that can be no brighter than a pet rock. Typical CYA because otherwise the Government gets sued by idiots.


She said that if you are STATE registered and pending documentation...there is no law that you are violating while operating your vessel and that a boarding officer (like I posted) will be more than satisfied with the minimal documentation of sale and state registration. Which confirms some of our suspicions and certainly the actions of field operatives.


Knowing the right questions to ask always helps.


Hope this puts the silly fearmongering of $10,000 fines to bed.


If not, please call for yourself, ask for Anita and tell her that you are following up on CDR Neeld's conversation of 1130, 24 Aug 2015 concerning transfer of ownersip.


I know this may not satisfy some as I am just a keyboard in the universe as has been pointed out in the past...although me and most of my resume is easily found in google......but it was my career, my blood for 23 years and I dislike crap thrown the way of the USCG when unnecessary.


Thank you to all others that have applied common sense to this thread...it make TF a much more valuable tool.
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Old 08-24-2015, 11:52 AM   #91
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Ummm did Anita just call Frank a pet rock?
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Old 08-24-2015, 11:55 AM   #92
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Ummm did Anita just call Frank a pet rock?
Naw...she was way more PC than I am....

But like using the wrong oil, filter or anchor...fearmongering has become a pastime on TF.

Then it turns into entertainment for those that have not much substantial to offer.
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:02 PM   #93
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had it easy

Applied for documentation shortly after signing boat's purchase contract with builder. The hull was already constructed, and during the six months when construction was being completed, documentation papers were received (took two to three months to process).

The builder provided purchase documents and boat dimensions needed for the documentation application.

California doesn't require registration for a documented boat.

Builder painted boat name and home port on the stern as well as installed documentation number in boat's interior. No extra charge.

Within two months of delivery, the State California sent a demand for payment of use tax. Mailed them the equivalent of the price of a new car.

Early the following year, Solano County sent paperwork requesting information as to the boat's purchase price. Subsequently received property tax assessment.
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:25 PM   #94
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Spoke to Anita working at the NVDC at 1130 this morning (snip)

She said that if you are STATE registered and pending documentation...there is no law that you are violating while operating your vessel (snip)
Thank you for helping with this.

That is consistent with what I was told. However, we are currently documented and awaiting an exchange of documentation (new COD or TCOD with new owner's info) which I was told by both the person in their legal department and the USCG officer who inquired for me is a different situation.

Before I bother Anita, I'd like to be sure your conversation covered that distinction.
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Old 08-24-2015, 01:09 PM   #95
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Neeld,


Thanks for clearing that up.
I was going to call this AM, but my feet had barely hit the deck when all hell broke loose! Been tied up ever since.


Thanks for getting the info straight

...pet rock....you sure you weren't a cop or a fireman in some life?

OD
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Old 08-24-2015, 01:23 PM   #96
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The latest from the NVDC:

I just managed to get a very harried sounding woman on the phone at NVDC.

She said I should have received an immediate automated receipt to the email filing I made Friday. If I didn’t, which I did not, then “something isn’t working right in the system”. It sounds therefore, that my Friday re-submission was bounced into the phantom zone.

I mentioned my email to the webmaster asking for live receipt confirmation and she said they are presently reading the emails from 13 August. I infer therefore, that no one will even check to see if my submission went into the system until about 4 September.

I asked what the current backlog and timeline was for TCOD’S and she said they are currently making no promises or giving out any timelines on TCOD or COD deliveries. I said this is a problem because I can’t move the boat until I get a certificate. She said, “That’s right.”

I asked, “Are we talking weeks or months here?”

She said, “I can’t say.”
Roger,

From the sounds of things, you and Neeld both have pretty extensive expertise and resume's in your respective fields. While I trust and defer to Neelds expertise, I still understand your concern.

Unfortunately, what Neeld received and what you received, were obviously as different as night and day. I'm guessing that the use of "CDR" might have had a bit to do with it. I know it used to get the attention of the admin types around the station

So, when you had your conversation, did you happen to get the woman's name? (Accountability usually helps in getting the right answers). It's still pretty typical of government employees, and I won't back away from that stance. I have had good ones and horrible ones. It happens.

I would do as the CDR suggests. Call them back and ask to speak with Anita. Get an employee number or last name to fall back on if necessary, and get the scoop from her. See if she can or will (politely I might add), send you anything in writing to confirm the conversation.

As we all realize, there's a 99.9999999999999999999% chance absolutely NOTHING will come out of your doc situation. That said, CYA comments do just that, CYA the employee, and do not provide you with a get out of jail/fine free card. Get something in writing if you're still concerned.

Otherwise, I'd register it with the state, move the damn thing and carry on with your boating life.

OD
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:08 PM   #97
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So, when you had your conversation, did you happen to get the woman's name?
No, I actually wasn't asking about this issue at all but simply whether they could find my application and what their TCOD delivery time was currently so I can plan. She just happened to repeat the standard,"You can't move your boat.", line. We're currently hauled for some major work so I have some time on this.

Since I already have it in writing from the NVDC legal department and confirmed by the USCG guy who tried to find a way around if for me, I'm not going ask someone else until I know what they are going to say. Anita did not say anything different to Pesneld than I have heard before if, I am reading his post correctly. Sure, a state registered boat applying for documentation can continue to operate. We've always known that.

Quote:
Call them back and ask to speak with Anita.
I'm going to try and get the BoatUS government affairs guy who is following this to do that. As you say, it sometimes depends who is asking.

Quote:
See if she can or will (politely I might add), send you anything in writing to confirm the conversation.
That's how I got into this mess. I asked for it in writing :} I learned long ago not to rely on what I'm told on the phone in a CYA situation. (See Post 83 of this thread.)
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:20 PM   #98
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How can you be "documented" without a permanent or temp in your hands?


From my understanding and the explanation given to me...is you are documented and should have your temp or permanent COD in hand...and you are good to go.


If not...then park your boat or go ahead and register it with your state...or heck ANY state....and then you are good to go.


If you don't like either of those options...then sit and don't wonder why the world seems to be topsy turvy.
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:22 PM   #99
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No, I actually wasn't asking about this issue at all but simply whether they could find my application and what their TCOD delivery time was currently so I can plan. She just happened to repeat the standard,"You can't move your boat.", line. We're currently hauled for some major work so I have some time on this.

Since I already have it in writing from the NVDC legal department and confirmed by the USCG guy who tried to find a way around if for me, I'm not going ask someone else until I know what they are going to say. Anita did not say anything different to Pesneld than I have heard before if, I am reading his post correctly. Sure, a state registered boat applying for documentation can continue to operate. We've always known that.

I'm going to try and get the BoatUS government affairs guy who is following this to do that. As you say, it sometimes depends who is asking.

That's how I got into this mess. I asked for it in writing :} I learned long ago not to rely on what I'm told on the phone in a CYA situation. (See Post 83 of this thread.)
WHAT? Then what the heck is the issue?


The more you post the more it seems like you and the CG are in total disconnect.


I got straight and problem solving answers in 10 minutes.


CDR might have helped...but I didn't use it up front and retired takes a lot out of it anyway.
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:31 PM   #100
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Yep...had to testify last fall a couple days before heading to Florida.

And lots of reading on whether insurance companies can deny claims and actually get away with it can almost fill Al Gore's internet.

Sure they can deny...then you sue for coverage...then they realize how weak this argument would be...the boat doesn't even HAVE to be documented....they would probably cover without going past the initial stab.
We deal with the insurance companies and their defense counsel daily, so fortunately and unfortunately, I've seen first hand how they work.

You are absolutely correct that in the end, the boater will likely prevail.
Now all they have to get past is the months and months of delay, and hell they can be put through, waiting to "win."

I'm not painting all companies with the same broad brush.
Some are stand up, top flight groups that do the right thing from jump


Quote:
Bottom line is a bunch of us have ignored it,the system seems to ignore it, no one here has ever heard of a real life issue over it, no one except one seems concerned over it....the real answer (the actual law reference or USCG printed interpretation of it) hasn't been found yet or any reference to it....etc...etc..
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