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Old 08-22-2015, 12:24 PM   #41
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I generally prefer to do everything myself. That stopped years ago for taxes. My current (documented) vessel was transferred by an agency maybe 13 years ago, but I've handled it since. Same with radio licenses, Nexus passes, passports, and so on. One thing that helps me is comprehensive email archives and a tool (I use 1password) to keep track of logins. And, most important, an email address that will NEVER get turned off (I've had my own domain and email for at least 25 years).

The one exception was my USCG license. There was a local lady who had done this from the government side and retired, and prepared my packet for something like $150. She retired from that so I'll have to do that myself now.
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Old 08-22-2015, 12:48 PM   #42
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A lot of not too pleasant things being thrown at government employees when I don't think anyone really knows why the NVDC is in crisis.

It could be everything from outside pressure to do things not in their charter from politicians...to a new computer system or software crap to prevent hacking to issues withing the banking system and prefered mortgages and we all know how squared away the banking system is.

Yes the system is broke..but it may not be the workers fault totally....

Any more than Yahoo bing a mess all the time, my internet orders being delayed or sent to the wrong place, things breaking 1 second after plugging them in...no government employees responsible there....
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:32 PM   #43
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A lot of not too pleasant things being thrown at government employees when I don't think anyone really knows why the NVDC is in crisis.

It could be everything from outside pressure to do things not in their charter from politicians...to a new computer system or software crap to prevent hacking to issues withing the banking system and prefered mortgages and we all know how squared away the banking system is.

Yes the system is broke..but it may not be the workers fault totally....

Any more than Yahoo bing a mess all the time, my internet orders being delayed or sent to the wrong place, things breaking 1 second after plugging them in...no government employees responsible there....
The workers may be more victims than we are. They have to live with hundreds of problems a week, not just our one. I think given the choice they would all prefer things to run more smoothly. That would reduce their workload. And even Amazon, which was built by offering the best service available, seems to be slipping a bit to me while they're regrouping and trying to offer next day and same day and setting up more facilities.

The hardest place for me not to lose it is fast food. Simple orders messed up so. People having no idea what they're doing. But they aren't the ones I want to yell at, it's their managers or more likely the owner hiring managers who don't know how to properly train.

I do believe the vast majority of people would prefer, if the same or similar effort required, to do their job well, rather than poorly. However, in many companies and government entities they are not equipped to perform as they should.

I do know as to the Documentation Center, they didn't have adequate facilities but now apparently do, just don't have the manpower to catch up. They wanted last year to hire contractors to help catch up, temporary help. The American Federation of Government Employees wouldn't allow that. Federal law requires a study to compare contracting costs vs. hiring. And they were in a moratorium on hiring at one time as well. The hope is that with the new $26 renewal fee they will be able to add the necessary staffing. Their is just something about them being located in a place named "Falling Waters" that seems to sum it all up.
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:58 PM   #44
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Still, it is kind of ironic that a "rule writer" doesnt like it so much being caught up in the unintended consequences of rules.

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Old 08-22-2015, 03:36 PM   #45
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The hope is that with the new $26 renewal fee they will be able to add the necessary staffing.
I strongly suspect that the new fees are the root of the problem. The way government funding works, those fees just go into the black hole of the general fund. The staffing is determined by the budget process.

The fees have certainly added a tremendous amount to the workload of processing all of these applications with no increase in staff. The government shutdowns and sequestration combined with the teething problems of getting the fee collection system up and running probably built up a backlog that will take a long time to clear.
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Old 08-22-2015, 03:45 PM   #46
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A lot of not too pleasant things being thrown at government employees when I don't think anyone really knows why the NVDC is in crisis.

It could be everything from outside pressure to do things not in their charter from politicians...to a new computer system or software crap to prevent hacking to issues withing the banking system and prefered mortgages and we all know how squared away the banking system is.

Yes the system is broke..but it may not be the workers fault totally....
I personally understand where you're coming from; however, if we didn't see such elitist, uncaring, not my problem attitudes from government employees across the board, not just at the Federal level, then maybe there would be more sympathy for them among the citizenry.

In some of my dealings with various groups, from the Coast Guard to other military organizations, to the Social Security Administration, IRS and FDOC, I have in fact ran across several very kind, diligent employees, that did a hell of a job explaining or correcting an issue for me, or providing guidance as to where to go to get what we needed. That said, there have been far more, and I will say here that maybe a disproportionate number have been on the state and local level, that have tendered a less than "service" related attitude. Those attitudes have been more like, we get paid whether we help you or not!

As our Sheriff once said, when you arrive on a call, you represent me (the Sheriff), the County, and every cop you've never met! Maybe we could waste less money on human diversity training, and spend a bit more time on customer service training.

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...Any more than Yahoo bing a mess all the time, my internet orders being delayed or sent to the wrong place, things breaking 1 second after plugging them in...no government employees responsible there....
Very true, but not a good comparison. In the free enterprise system, you have the option not to use the service or purchase from that manufacturer.
If you want your vessel documented, you really have no choice.


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The workers may be more victims than we are. They have to live with hundreds of problems a week, not just our one. ...
Very true, but again it goes back to my LEO days. Regardless of how "my" day was going. Regardless of how many times I'd seen/heard this story before, and despite how minimal in the overall crime scale or how much BS the entire thing may be, you had to put on your game face, and approach each one as if it's the only thing on your plate. That one interaction with the public, may be the persons first and only interaction with law enforcement (or a government employee in this case), and for that few minutes or so, is the most important thing in the world to them.

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The hardest place for me not to lose it is fast food. Simple orders messed up so. People having no idea what they're doing. But they aren't the ones I want to yell at, it's their managers or more likely the owner hiring managers who don't know how to properly train.
I know exactly what you mean.
I used to get a bit miffed at the inability to make a simple fast food burger and throw in some semi-warm fries. Then I realized that it really didn't matter. Now I watch everyone else go bat sh** crazy over it. Better than a reality show sometimes.

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They wanted last year to hire contractors to help catch up, temporary help. The American Federation of Government Employees wouldn't allow that. Federal law requires a study to compare contracting costs vs. hiring.
There's a huge part of the problem right there!
More wasted time and money!

Temp help is pretty simple.
No bene's no retirement, none of the other crap you are saddled with for FT workers, and when it's over, it's over! Now let's form a study group....

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Their is just something about them being located in a place named "Falling Waters" that seems to sum it all up.


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Still, it is kind of ironic that a "rule writer" doesnt like it so much being caught up in the unintended consequences of rules.
Isn't that the way it usually goes?
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Old 08-22-2015, 03:47 PM   #47
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I strongly suspect that the new fees are the root of the problem. The way government funding works, those fees just go into the black hole of the general fund. The staffing is determined by the budget process.

The fees have certainly added a tremendous amount to the workload of processing all of these applications with no increase in staff. The government shutdowns and sequestration combined with the teething problems of getting the fee collection system up and running probably built up a backlog that will take a long time to clear.
Again, poor planning and prioritization.
If you're going to add work, make sure you have the infrastructure to handle it. Simple, basic business sense.


The one thing I noticed was, when we had the sequestration, the world didn't come to an end.
Has to tell you something about manpower and necessities?
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Old 08-22-2015, 04:34 PM   #48
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Again, poor planning and prioritization.
If you're going to add work, make sure you have the infrastructure to handle it. Simple, basic business sense.


The one thing I noticed was, when we had the sequestration, the world didn't come to an end.
Has to tell you something about manpower and necessities?
Documents emerged in which the politician bosses ordered their departments to cut first where the public would feel it most. To punish us for cutting their budgets. At the same time they were going on boondoggles to Vegas, they were closing parks. I think it's still going on. The last two times I entered the US (two different airports), immigration and customs was like a third world country. Massive lines, people cutting, and half of the available aisles staffed. In both airports I asked customs officials, who were standing around chatting and seemingly indifferent to the chaos, what the problem was. Got the same answer both times, "oh, our budget was cut." I didn't ask them what they were doing; figured I'd get detained.

I'm cynical enough to believe this is a strategy. Provide lousy enough service and eventually people will believe that more money is the answer.
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Old 08-22-2015, 06:02 PM   #49
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Documents emerged in which the politician bosses ordered their departments to cut first where the public would feel it most. To punish us for cutting their budgets. At the same time they were going on boondoggles to Vegas, they were closing parks. I think it's still going on. The last two times I entered the US (two different airports), immigration and customs was like a third world country. Massive lines, people cutting, and half of the available aisles staffed. In both airports I asked customs officials, who were standing around chatting and seemingly indifferent to the chaos, what the problem was. Got the same answer both times, "oh, our budget was cut." I didn't ask them what they were doing; figured I'd get detained.

I'm cynical enough to believe this is a strategy. Provide lousy enough service and eventually people will believe that more money is the answer.
You're probably right. You'd have been the poster child for TSA Patdown training

And you're absolutely correct in your assessment.
Scare tactic. We hear it around here every time the local agencies ask for more money, the locals vote it down or the commission/council refused to fund it. We'll have to cut back LEO's (street level of course), Fire Fighters', Paramedics, Teachers....

I don't want to take this thread any further off course that it has already drifted from the OP's original intent, but you're right.

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Old 08-22-2015, 06:44 PM   #50
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Once the boat is registered in a state, it's legal. Enjoy. The documentation is required for mortgages and is preferred but not necessarily required in leaving the country.

I once again do advise the use of documentation agents. They are professional and efficient and deal with any problems so you don't have to. If you intend to leave the country soon after taking the boat you can put through an urgent request and get quick turnaround.

Our first boats we were just going to be using in the US and the Bahamas. The Bahamas are fine with Florida registrations. We had no issue waiting 8 months for documentation and not sure why we even documented now that I think of it. More recently we were going to be leaving the country, an agent rushed the documentation and we had it quickly.

As an aside, the documentation did promise to work on processing times. When we first looked on their web site they were about 9 months behind. Now, i ight there on our boat and verified all of the info for our boatt's only 4. So progress, even if slow. Recording mortgages they are in much worse shape. They did a few months back stop issuing temporary documents but they started doing so again in May. However, another reason I use an agent as what you know last week may have changed.
We purchased our Defever 44 in Palm Coast, FL in Feb. 2014. We drove her home to Maryland in April without our new documentation. We were stopped and boarded by the Coasties somewhere in North Carolina (I think). Four young petty officers boarded with weapons and kevlar and gave us a thorough safety check. They examined our paperwork, the bill of sale, the application for new documentation. They went on line and verified all of the info for our boat in their database with never a mention of our being in violation cuz we did not have our new certficate. This is simply not something to worry about. The Coasties have better things to do with their time than to make a bust for something like this. The bad publicity would be damaging, don't you think?

The whole process was quite interesting. They entered my driver's license number into their system, did their safety checks, bilge check, fire extinguishers check, oil and waste placards, and asked for our "rules of the road" book. After having entered all of their data points they printed out, on the spot, a report documenting the safety check. Very impressive. They didn't even bat an eye when I informed them, by VHF before they even boarded, that we had a firearm aboard which they inspected as well. Our shotgun was in a case, unloaded which I opened, at their request, and placed on the bed in our stateroom. We were indeed surprised by the boarding. We were crossing some very large and long sound in murky weather when they hailed us via VHF and instructed us to heave to. They had us hold course at idle speed while they came alongside and boarded. Go sailing.
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Old 08-22-2015, 08:43 PM   #51
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I have had several contacts with the NVDC over the years. The first was in 1981 when I ordered a trawler to be built at Blue Seas in Tiawan. The NVDC was in St. Louis at the time. A lady worked with me through the process as she called it "making a citizen of the boat" to the final document issue. I have bought 2 boats in Florida with a 90 day Florida cruise permit. Both times I talked with someone in West Virginia about the problem of having to leave the state. They put it through as a hardship case, and the document arrived before dead line. I have had good experience with the folks up there.
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Old 08-22-2015, 09:35 PM   #52
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I think we are all missing the real point of this documentation discussion. The majority of thread replies are along the lines that you are unlikely to have a problem operating between sale and receipt of a TCOD. I agree with that. I take, and expect to take in the future, much greater risks; rocks, weather, equipment breakdown, whatever.

However ask yourself, would sign this document if it was presented to you by the USCG as a condition of operating your vessel? Even if the USCG told you it was virtually unlikely you would be called to pay, is there anyone here who would sign it?


When we tolerate the government putting many of us in the position of breaking a law, even with highly unofficial promises that we won't have a problem, we are essentially making the agreement above.

Sure, the risk is low but, would you sign that piece of paper if the agreement were spelled out that clearly?
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Old 08-22-2015, 09:41 PM   #53
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Having read the CFRs...where exactly did the NVDC say you were in violation?

I really never saw anything that said you or the rest of us are/were in violation be a use most of our boats do not need to be documented in the first place for USCG purposes.
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:05 PM   #54
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Last fall when my wife and I purchased our Mainship in Florida we had all the bills of sale and documentation papers signed by us and the previous owner and then left Florida bound for NY on the intercoastal. We did not give anthing a second thought. Got to NY and found out that even a documented boat in NY needs to be registered. Sent the documentation papers to the CG and off to Motor Vehicle I went, paid the sales tax due, registered the boat, got the stickers and title in the mail, slapped the stickers on with out numbers because in NY a documented boat needs only stickers and then proceeded to use our new boat. I just made sure to carry copies of every document on board. Go to NYS DMV and register and Bon voyage. Enjoy and if stopped as long as you are respectful and don't have an attitude you should just fine. Life is to short to sweat the small stuff.
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:16 PM   #55
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Having read the CFRs...where exactly did the NVDC say you were in violation?

I really never saw anything that said you or the rest of us are/were in violation be a use most of our boats do not need to be documented in the first place for USCG purposes.
This was as close as I could get tonight:

Merchant Vessel Inspection and Documentation - Chapter13

Sub-Section 13F of that fiasco appears to deal with recreational vessels, and states that a fine can be assessed; however, it doesn't specify an amount.

In every "unofficial" link I found (Chapmans, BOATUS, and various vessel documentation companies), they all stated the $10k number. I'm sure there's something to it, but it's going to take more digging than I have time to do tonight.

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Old 08-22-2015, 11:29 PM   #56
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Sorry..still don't see the violation.
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:39 PM   #57
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Subpart 13F
Article 13.27 is the applicability.
13.29 - enforcement.



Article 13.29 Enforcement.
(A) Subject to the rights and limitations in Chapter 3, an officer with general law enforcement authority may at any time hail, stop, and board any vessel subject to [State] jurisdiction and take all necessary action to enforce the provisions of [State] law, this chapter, and any directives issued under the authority of this chapter and execute any legal process issued by an officer or court of competent jurisdiction.
(B) Officers with general law enforcement authority are authorized to seize and secure any vessel and to arrest any person liable to arrest by virtue of any law or directive, and to use the minimum necessary force to seize or arrest the same.
(C) In addition to enforcing the provisions of this chapter and other related [State] laws and directives, the Maritime Force shall prepare the necessary documentation to support a violation or violations of this chapter, [State] law, or directive. The Maritime Force is authorized to assess a penalty for a violation of this chapter and directives issued pursuant to this chapter.
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:40 PM   #58
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I'll see if I can find something more specific tomorrow.
Just leaving the office headed home.


Later guys.

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Old 08-22-2015, 11:44 PM   #59
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I think we are all missing the real point of this documentation discussion. The majority of thread replies are along the lines that you are unlikely to have a problem operating between sale and receipt of a TCOD. I agree with that. I take, and expect to take in the future, much greater risks; rocks, weather, equipment breakdown, whatever.

However ask yourself, would sign this document if it was presented to you by the USCG as a condition of operating your vessel? Even if the USCG told you it was virtually unlikely you would be called to pay, is there anyone here who would sign it?


When we tolerate the government putting many of us in the position of breaking a law, even with highly unofficial promises that we won't have a problem, we are essentially making the agreement above.

Sure, the risk is low but, would you sign that piece of paper if the agreement were spelled out that clearly?
No I would not sign that document. I think you should wait at the dock and not move your boat until the paperwork comes through in what.. six months?
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:51 PM   #60
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Ski,


Agree or not, Roger has a point.
I the "real world" will he end up with a problem?
I'd give it a 99.9999999999999999999% NO, and I'd probably take my chances.
But if it goes sideways for some reason, he has nothing to fall back on.
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