Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 08-21-2015, 06:01 PM   #21
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,118
Once the boat is registered in a state, it's legal. Enjoy. The documentation is required for mortgages and is preferred but not necessarily required in leaving the country.

I once again do advise the use of documentation agents. They are professional and efficient and deal with any problems so you don't have to. If you intend to leave the country soon after taking the boat you can put through an urgent request and get quick turnaround.

Our first boats we were just going to be using in the US and the Bahamas. The Bahamas are fine with Florida registrations. We had no issue waiting 8 months for documentation and not sure why we even documented now that I think of it. More recently we were going to be leaving the country, an agent rushed the documentation and we had it quickly.

As an aside, the documentation did promise to work on processing times. When we first looked on their web site they were about 9 months behind. Now, it's only 4. So progress, even if slow. Recording mortgages they are in much worse shape. They did a few months back stop issuing temporary documents but they started doing so again in May. However, another reason I use an agent as what you know last week may have changed.
__________________
Advertisement

BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2015, 06:59 PM   #22
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,185
The documentation center is not the shining side of the USCG. I suspect it's because all the money is being allocated towards guns and night vision cameras and other play things to keep the boogey man away from us. Us rich yachtie folks are a low priority. Commercial boats, by the way, get processed right away.

I agree that technically you are in violation to operate while the USCG picks their nose instead of processing your application, and no official will ever tell you otherwise. But in practice it's not an issue as long as you carry paperwork to show you have applied for documentation.

One note on state registration as an interim measure. Doing so will trigger state sales tax where it might otherwise not be due. I purchased my boat off-shore in international waters, and no sales tax is due to my home state until I bring the boat into the state, and then only if I do so within 1 year or two years or something like that after purchase. As a non-resident in the other states I am visiting, I am a visitor and state sales/use tax is not due as long as I don't stay too long and comply with their rules, which of course I do.
__________________

__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2015, 08:01 PM   #23
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
The documentation center is not the shining side of the USCG. I suspect it's because all the money is being allocated towards guns and night vision cameras and other play things to keep the boogey man away from us. Us rich yachtie folks are a low priority. Commercial boats, by the way, get processed right away.

I agree that technically you are in violation to operate while the USCG picks their nose instead of processing your application, and no official will ever tell you otherwise. But in practice it's not an issue as long as you carry paperwork to show you have applied for documentation.

One note on state registration as an interim measure. Doing so will trigger state sales tax where it might otherwise not be due. I purchased my boat off-shore in international waters, and no sales tax is due to my home state until I bring the boat into the state, and then only if I do so within 1 year or two years or something like that after purchase. As a non-resident in the other states I am visiting, I am a visitor and state sales/use tax is not due as long as I don't stay too long and comply with their rules, which of course I do.
A good point on sales tax. For most who are going to have a home state they're going to be subject to it regardless. Obviously if you're not bringing the boat into the US for a while and then not overstaying anywhere you can avoid sales tax. In some cases though there's an advantage to paying sales tax to avoid being charged in states with higher rates. A good documentation agent can also advise on individual situations.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2015, 08:10 PM   #24
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,864
NJ will collect the difference if paid lower elsewhere and they have pretty strict use tax laws.

Not sure of any other state....
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2015, 08:29 PM   #25
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
NJ will collect the difference if paid lower elsewhere and they have pretty strict use tax laws.

Not sure of any other state....
Every state has different laws on how long you can be there without registering, when you must pay sales tax, whether there is property tax. However, in the majority of states, whether it is documented or not doesn't matter. It just lets you use a decal instead of numbers. Now some states don't require registration of documented vessels.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2015, 10:44 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
wyoboater's Avatar
 
City: Clear Lake Shores,Tx
Country: USA
Vessel Name: In Disguise
Vessel Model: 1985 Mainship 40 DC
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 448
Just an aside: I'm still waiting for my doc. papers. Can someone give me the USCG number or website? Thanks
wyoboater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2015, 11:23 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Capt. Jon's Avatar
 
City: Alabama
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Waypoint
Vessel Model: Californian 48' CPMY
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 381
Phone Numbers:
Toll Free: (800) 799-8362
Main: (304) 271-2400
Phone Hours: 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday)
Phones are not manned on Thursdays

All Times are Eastern Time (Standard or Daylight Savings, when applicable)
__________________
Jon
------------------------------------------------
Waypoint's are abstract, often having no obvious relationship to any distinctive features of the real world.
Capt. Jon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 12:21 AM   #28
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
One more data point for you. I bought my boat in Ketchikan, AK then entered Canada and re-entered the US on the way to San Francisco. I had no problems presenting a bill of sale with an application for the change in documentation. I don't think you need to worry - I certainly did not.

Richard
Stillwater
KK54 #5
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 12:23 AM   #29
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,118
Website

USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Home Page
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 07:33 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
Roger Long's Avatar
 
City: Albany, NY
Country: Albany
Vessel Name: Gypsy Star
Vessel Model: Gulf Star 43
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 193
I've been talking with the government affairs guy at BoatUS about this. There is an effort underway, led by one congressman, to reform the NVDC. Copy of my latest email to BoatUS:

David,

I just checked the NVDC page that tells which application dates are currently being processed. Since I filed our application on August 4, 18 days ago, they have gained six days. That means they are falling 3 days further behind every day. Mathematically, that means no current applications will ever be processed.

The only thing showing up in the system for our boat is the lien release form. This was sent directly by the very large brokerage and was in the system within 12 hours of receipt. This supports the point you were delicately trying to make, the NVDC is just ignoring and knocking off the back of the desk anything not received from a documentation agent or brokerage that they do not deal with frequently enough to recognize the name.

I see that the BoatUS website doesn’t indicate how much you charge to handle documentation but there is currently a $100 off offer. I can only conclude that this is one of those “If you have to ask, you can’t afford it.” things. The broker wanted $450 for the work I did on our boat in 45 minutes. From a work standpoint, this is as absurd as the mailings and emails I get every year at document renewal time offering to help me with the “complex process” (one signature, one check mark, one date) for $100 and up. It’s never taken me more than 5 minutes to renew.

Clearly, what is being sold here is not work but access. Government obstructionism now creates windfall for private access providers. BoatUS has become part of that system so I guess I will contact them on Monday and pay for what they are now selling.

Roger
Roger Long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 08:01 AM   #31
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,864
I do not believe documentation services get any preferential treatment..could be wrong..

The USCG generally doesn't work like that and I never noticed doc service packages getting through any faster if all OK.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 08:40 AM   #32
Guru
 
siestakey's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota,FL/Thomasville,GA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Steppin Stone IV
Vessel Model: Marine Trader Kelly Trawler 46
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,271
Send a message via Skype™ to siestakey
I had a similar problem getting my documentation done and boarding in the last year and half in the Sarasota to Tampa bay area has been very common

And yes I got boarded by the USCG not once but 2 times before I got my Doc back

on the first Boarding I had the state paperwork and the bill of sales and the old Doc

I started explaining to the boarding officer about the hold up he didnt want to hear it just wanted to know if I had any illegals on board and the location of the gun ( they asked by radio before boarding about the gun)

the 2nd time I got boarded the first thing he asked was did they ever get your documentation done ( it was not the same boarding officer) and then went through the same routine
siestakey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 08:49 AM   #33
Guru
 
cappy208's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slip Aweigh
Vessel Model: Prairie 29
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,131
Documentation Dysfunction Serious Issue for Buyers and Sellers

From my understanding of the documentation services: They don't garner any more preference in your application over a 'self completed' app. Where they are involved is submitting a COMPLETE and accurate application. Once an app has been submitted (which takes months) any further reprocessing takes more months which even further exacerbates the process. Any errors at all greatly delay the application. This removal of any errors is what the documentation servers are good at smoothing over.
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 09:14 AM   #34
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,864
I can understand a complicated documentation...but most of us are just buying a completely clear (except maybe an outstanding preferred mortgage) documented vessel and other than a couple signatures and a couple sheets of paper....


I have done my last 2 and no issues getting the documentation fast...there were just hidden errors within that the USCG hadn't noticed even on the prior documentation issues.


While the costs for a doc service aren't totally out of line...that money for filling out less paperwork than even simple tax forms feels better in my pocket than someone elses.


For thse that have never done their own documentation....read the steps and look over the forms. If you think you will have the info and can follow what the forms are asking for, try it yourself...it isn't difficult at all.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 09:22 AM   #35
Senior Member
 
Roger Long's Avatar
 
City: Albany, NY
Country: Albany
Vessel Name: Gypsy Star
Vessel Model: Gulf Star 43
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
They don't garner any more preference in your application over a 'self completed' app. Where they are involved is submitting a COMPLETE and accurate application.
I was the naval architect for the USCG / Industry task force that wrote the rules for certificating the stability of sailing school vessels. I did things like prove the equivalent safety of the wooden "Spirit of Massachusetts" to rules for steel vessel for assignment of international load line (first time in this country a boat of that type ever received one). I used to submit inches thick applications on behalf of clients to the Coast Guard and fly down to headquarters frequently for meetings. I handled numerous USCG supervised stability tests and stability approvals. The bulk of my career was spent dealing with the Coast Guard. I put my last vessel into documentation myself a decade ago and had a COD a week after I began the process.

The document that the broker sent showed up in their system showed up in less than 12 hours. They can't even find the documents I have sent three times, including two copies directly to the webmaster who is looking for them. They still can't find them.

I don't think a "self completed application" is the problem here.
Roger Long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 09:52 AM   #36
Guru
 
Off Duty's Avatar
 
City: Tampa
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
There are 47 gazzilion laws on the books. If you simply take a breath, you are probably breaking a few of them....
Guaranteed.
I used to tell rookies when following a suspect vehicle.
"Take your time. They'll do something soon enough, and you have your PC" . Too many potentially good criminal cases are lost at the traffic stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
Well, yes. I may view this issue differently as a result of a big part of my career being spent consulting to operators of USCG inspected vessels and also as a pilot observing the way FAA inspectors work.
It only takes one young turk trying to make a name for himself or one boarding officer having a bad day to ruin your whole day. I've seen over and over that, when a line officer makes a dumb discretion call, the SOP of both the Coast Guard and the FAA is to back him up all the way. I've fought these things all the way up to headquarters on behalf of clients.

Sure, the "Coast Guard" knows but it's only the opinion of the guy who boards your boat that counts.
Roger, I understand your concern.
As one who has been in LE most of my adult life, spent years as a boarding officer with Uncle Sam's Confused Group, and spent way too many years working with and around lawyers, I too tend to take a different perspective on regs as well. Then again, I also realize that there's usually a way around most problems, and there's almost always "another level" to which the problems can be taken, but as you stated, one rogue newbie or one having a bad day, "can" screw up your day, but as others have mentioned we just did the paperwork as boarding officers. Admin fines, etc., were done at a higher level by the admin and "O" types, not by the "boots on the boats" peeps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
...they would be crazy to push action against an individual that legally purchased a legally and clear documented vessel. It would show a flawed system...Now other actions such as government leins for environmental issues, taxes, etc are a different story...
Very true. Want to start a Sheet storm, start routinely screwing with the public over problems that you (government) created, and watch the defecate strike the rotating assembly! Realistically, the IRS does this daily, but that's a much larger, better funded, and much more complex organization to deal with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
While a boarding officer gets a lot of latitude...a good number of seniors would oversight the "seizure" of a vessel for a documentation issue that is pretty easy to verify was legal. Now they may tie you up for 24 hours till some basics are resolved...but removing you from your vessel would as I earlier posted...would be pretty drastic.
Aye!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
...It really irritates me that the USCG can't find a way for me to do that.
It's not that they "can't." That's giving them too much latitude. It's that they "won't." This entire matter could be corrected quickly and relatively simply, buy privatization and open competition. As with most businesses that compete for the same clientele, if you're not better/cheaper/or a combination of the above, you're out of the game. The fees could remain set by the gub'ment so they "get's their nickel", and allow the private corps to set a "reasonable fee" within certain parameters for their work. This could even be done at a contract level. At that point, it's mostly speed and efficiency that will win.

Alternatively, with today's electronic environment, I'd be willing to bet that the entire process could be completed electronically in a few hours max! No need for "faxes", "mailing" or any of that other antiquated nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
...The guys on the water are usually pretty cool is you have some paperwork and a logical explaination...they don't have the CFRs memorized and really don't want to get into a paperwork tangle.
Amen! As one formerly in that position, I'll 2nd that!
We were looking for criminal, safety, and marine environmental issues.
The rest of that stuff was "noted" and to my knowledge, never acted upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by questionmark View Post
I've had my own horror story with the NVDC. I tried to make a change to my documentation midyear, and faxed them all the paperwork last February. Last August, while we were out at the islands (way out of cell range) I got a nasty voicemail from the NVDC telling me that my application was incomplete, and I had 72 hours to remedy it or I would forfeit my money and my place in line. Well, a week later when we got back I called them.

It turns out the fax machine had jammed during the call and one of the pages was incomplete. Needless to say, I was speechless. I work for local government, so I've got no illusions as to their efficiency, but this was a new low. At this point I should mention that I've worked on the end of a phone line before, so I prefer not to yell or mistreat someone who's personally not at fault just to make myself feel better. But the treatment I got from the lady at the CG was outrageous. I finally broke my own rule, and in a calm determined voice told her to shred my application and keep my money, I was going to refile with a documentation company, and to consider my fee a cheap learning experience in governmental incompetence. I expressed my gratitude that the operational folks at the CG didn't operate in a similar fashion, as I'd hate to wait four months after calling for help to hear they were busy and not coming to get me. That it was a joke to wait four months to tell me I had 72 hours to fix a problem on their end. And after all that, I didn't even feel better.

So I paid a documentation company to resubmit, but with an additional change. Low and behold, a few weeks later I got a certificate of documentation in the mail. Without the additional change. My best guess is that the lady at NVDC realized the ridiculousness of the whole thing and completed my "incomplete" application.

At any rate, the folks with the boots on the ground (or is it deck in this case) are well aware of the shortcomings of those in the rear echelon. I can't imagine that you would have any issue unless you force their hand by being a knucklehead during the inspection.
You my friend, have much more patience than I in dealing with stupid and arrogant combinations. I fought our states department of revenue (now if you want to see incompetence at it's finest, look there), over a mere $50.00 "penalty" and $10.00 "interest"penalty", and won! *Hint* you can't add interest and penalties to an improper fine, unless you're with the IRS. Generally when I encounter people like that, I almost immediately conclude any conversation with them, and start climbing the food chain until I find something a bit more edible. There truly is a lot that "can" be done, it's just knowing where and how to do it. In the case of government, it sometimes involves the press. Other times, lawyers and a "class" of victims of the behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Everything you stated is correct. However there is a work around. Get the state documentation. Register your boat with NY (or wherever home state is) and then your legal. Then let the state reg lapse once the COD comes in the mail.

... But, unless I peeved off a boarding officer they don't look that hard at the details. They just want 'some' info to fill up their boarding report, and most importantly want to ascertain sobriety, flares, PFDs, Overboard valve and fire extinguishers. Then there gone to the next hapless victim. I think the key to the issue is to not tick off the boarding officer. When you hear someone getting mouthy, that's when they get more inquisitive.
Thanks Cappy! Always a fix somewhere, and like you said, there's more important things on the B.O.'s plate than docs. Just keep it pro, try not to piss off someone whose probably hot, tired and maybe a little stressed out, and you're golden!

My only real concern with this entire matter, is where to the fines for this stuff go? How is the money distributed? I "assume" into a general fund? If someone knows, please advise.
With our government being so inept, and the deficit rising by the hour, I can (and have) seen more stringent enforcement (and fines) of things that have in the past been overlooked or minimized. Where there's money to be taken, leave it to our folks in Washington to figure out a way to do it.
__________________
"I'm the only one who has removed half a brain, but if you went to Washington, you'd think someone beat me to it"...Dr. Ben Carson 08-06-2015
Off Duty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 10:08 AM   #37
Guru
 
City: kemah
Country: USA
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 997
Quote:
HOW DO I REQUEST PRIORITY HANDLING?

See Instructions Page on our website for details.
Top of Page

Quote:
MAY I RECEIVE FAXED COPIES OF COMPLETED PRODUCTS PRIOR TO MAILING?

Requests for faxing of Certificates of Documentation, Letters of Deletion, Certificates of Ownership and recorded instruments such as Preferred Mortgages, Bills of Sale, Notices of Claim of Lien, and Satisfactions of Mortgage in combination to mailing will require an additional Certified Copy fee of $4.00 for each item.
Top of Page

coulda shoulda woulda
what_barnacles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 10:47 AM   #38
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,118
Documentation services do not get special treatment. However, they do know what is going on internally at the processing facility at a given time, they do submit paperwork not only correctly, but exactly how the center wants it, and they do know how to reach the right people to follow up on any problems. They are aware of the changes made this week or last. The fees are quite reasonable. I only know that I hear of people having issues all the time when self filing and don't hear of problems using the good services.

Twice I've filed for priority handling and both have been processed and to me in less than two weeks.

But then I also use passport services which many would consider a waste of money.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 11:03 AM   #39
Guru
 
Off Duty's Avatar
 
City: Tampa
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Documentation services do not get special treatment. However, they do know what is going on internally at the processing facility at a given time, they do submit paperwork not only correctly, but exactly how the center wants it, and they do know how to reach the right people to follow up on any problems. They are aware of the changes made this week or last. The fees are quite reasonable. I only know that I hear of people having issues all the time when self filing and don't hear of problems using the good services.

Twice I've filed for priority handling and both have been processed and to me in less than two weeks.

But then I also use passport services which many would consider a waste of money.
I'm with you. It's not so much that I can't do a lot of this stuff, but that I don't want to do it!

Heck, I can use my time more productively for business, spending time with friends and family, or wasting time on TF

Seriously, I work doing what I do well, so I can pay others to do what they do well It works well for everyone that way
__________________
"I'm the only one who has removed half a brain, but if you went to Washington, you'd think someone beat me to it"...Dr. Ben Carson 08-06-2015
Off Duty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2015, 12:05 PM   #40
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,882
One thing to keep in mind is that govt agencies only get their increase in funding if they show they are backed up with work. If they worked efficiently and got everything done quickly, the increase in funding would not be approved.
__________________

Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012