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Old 03-28-2015, 06:25 PM   #161
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I just love this conversation! Here's what I have learned in my 74 years on this planet.

Money may not be the cause of much happiness,
But it's running a damn close second to whatever is in first place!
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Old 03-28-2015, 06:44 PM   #162
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I just love this conversation! Here's what I have learned in my 74 years on this planet.

Money may not be the cause of much happiness,
But it's running a damn close second to whatever is in first place!
When this group is discussing it we are ignoring those truly without money. We're really in the good and the better groups. But for those struggling to feed themselves and their kids and keep a roof over their heads, money is a huge need.

Back to boating. It's a sport for the middle class and the wealthy and always has been. Those in poverty, struggling to survive, never bought boats. 45 million Americans (15%) are living below the poverty line. Last numbers I saw said 50% of world lives on less than $2.50 per day, 80% on less than $10. Those numbers are old so inflate them slightly. 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. 165 million children under 5 years old suffering from malnutrition.

Not wanting to open up a discussion on how to fix all that or the why, just a reminder to all of us that even the poorest on here are among the lucky ones in the world and even the cheapest old boat is something most people in the world can't afford.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:55 PM   #163
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BandB,

I was hoping for a post like yours. Thank you. We are very, very fortunate and let's not forget it. Many of us have worked hard for what we have but education and hard work no longer equates to success--the rules have changed. Boating IS becoming out of reach for the middle class--whatever is left of it. No matter how you slice it, the statistics are quite scary and growing poverty and income inequality WILL cause some serious problems for this country in the near future.

When we are boating, my wife and I frequently remind my little girl that we are blessed and to remember that not every child is able to enjoy what we experience and have. And yes, with the number of Americans living poverty, I do feel guilty at times.
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Old 03-28-2015, 09:26 PM   #164
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Yes!!!

Great post BandB!

We, and that is all of us, need to be very aware and thankful that we can have a boat. Something allot of hard working honest people never even get to dream about.

As to the happiness and wealth thing, sorry but more money does not mean you are unhappy, or happy. It probably means that you worked your ass off to make that money. It also means that you might have traded allot of your time for that money, time you didn't get with your family. Respect that guy for his dedication and hard work, and willingness to take risk, (something no wage earner really understands.)

So, as you get on YOUR boat take a moment and think about the guy with the bigger nicer boat. Wonder if he is working so hard he doesn't have the time to enjoy it. Think about the guy you see working at the grocery store. Be thankful that you have the opportunity to do things he can't even dream about.

Oh and when you interact with the hard working members of the human race that are less fortunate, treat them very well. Remember just how lucky you are.
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Old 03-28-2015, 11:28 PM   #165
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I believe wealth can be the result of happiness but I don't believe happiness is the result of wealth.
Marin,
Seldom do you come forth w just a few powerful words but that is good.
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Old 03-29-2015, 01:21 AM   #166
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Quote:
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The largest boat I've ever been on was 199'.
Friends of ours (when I was a Kidlet) owned a 110' Canadian Air/Sea rescue boat that had been turned into a yacht. Think "Presidential" and you're getting close. That boat was a lot of fun.

His grandpa was Colt (guns) and they had a cannon on the bow. What fun that was! It shot grapefruit when the liquor flowed, and it did, often.

It really was a neat-o boat to explore and play aboard. The owners were right nice too. Their son owned one of those Aquacars and took me for a ride. The "bilge pump" (is it called that in a car?) ran the whole time. But it was fun.

I don't know that I'd want any boat that required crew. Crew equals people, either management of or dealing with... both are work.

Of course scrubbing the overhead where some bozo previous owner painted over the gelcoat (to hide the nicotine stains) isn't much fun so being a boss might not be a bad thing. "Please clean it Matey" has a nice ring to it...
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Old 03-29-2015, 02:55 AM   #167
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No.
I'm saying that the rich and famous are unhappy because they are wealthy, not because they became wealthy.
Not at all true. Over the years I have known or still know people who are extremely wealthy. None of them started out that way, they worked for what they have. And all of them are extremely happy. But not because of their wealth but because of their outlook on life and the way they chose to live their lives long before they became wealthy. And some of them own or have owned yachts--- really big ones--- and bizjets and helicopters and whatnot.
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Old 03-29-2015, 03:02 AM   #168
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But...
if you are already happy and content then it's unlikely that you would have a superyacht and private jet...
Why not? A person who is happy and has wealth may want a boat or private jet for all sorts of reasons, some of which will have to do with the fact that doing the things that these things make possible adds to his and his family's happiness.

The notion that if you're happy you wouldn't have expensive things like boats and planes and whatnot is not reflected in reality.

If you're not happy, the chances are that buying these kinds of things won't cure that. As BandB stated, happiness is a state of mind, not something you can buy at the yacht or jet store.

But happiness and expensive things like boats and planes and Ferraris are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I daresay they are totally unrelated.
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Old 03-29-2015, 06:30 AM   #169
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What is our true nature?
The dilemma is that when a poor person becomes rich they change; waiters fawn on them, shop assistants coo, bank mangers bow ....and in a very short time the ordinary 'nice guy' turns into a VIP monster demanding this that and the other.

Wealth destroys the rich guys life, they turn into self obsessed tyrants. Do this, bring that, go there, come here.....the power of wealth corrupts the nicest of ordinary people.

And on a phycological level rich people send every day worrying what would happen if they lost it all; nobody would then respect them and all their 'bought friends' would avoid them.

The rich and famous have a terrible life; better to live a simple natural life.
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Old 03-29-2015, 07:21 AM   #170
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If I suddenly had a few million to blow , the biggest change in my lifestyle would be to have a driver.

Not for daily use but for evenings like a dinner out and a show or event.

I hate driving at night , and not being able to have a brewski with dinner , since home is 60 miles away in Fl , and 30 in CT , a driver would be nice..
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Old 03-29-2015, 07:35 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Rustybarge View Post
What is our true nature?
The dilemma is that when a poor person becomes rich they change; waiters fawn on them, shop assistants coo, bank mangers bow ....and in a very short time the ordinary 'nice guy' turns into a VIP monster demanding this that and the other.

Wealth destroys the rich guys life, they turn into self obsessed tyrants. Do this, bring that, go there, come here.....the power of wealth corrupts the nicest of ordinary people.

And on a phycological level rich people send every day worrying what would happen if they lost it all; nobody would then respect them and all their 'bought friends' would avoid them.

The rich and famous have a terrible life; better to live a simple natural life.
A little too Hollywood.....
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Old 03-29-2015, 07:56 AM   #172
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A little too Hollywood.....
Look how many famous people ending up destroying their own lives, esp in the entertainment business. Ok so they're know for the excesses they indulge in.

Take Bill Gates: when goes to get a Big Mac there is one car in front with 4 armed security guys, and another car behind. He's become a prisoner of his own success.
Howard Hughes got so fed up with being famous that he used to travel around hitch hiking and dressed up like a hobo.

...and whats the story with that Trump guy?
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Old 03-29-2015, 08:04 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Rustybarge View Post
What is our true nature?
The dilemma is that when a poor person becomes rich they change; waiters fawn on them, shop assistants coo, bank mangers bow ....and in a very short time the ordinary 'nice guy' turns into a VIP monster demanding this that and the other.

Wealth destroys the rich guys life, they turn into self obsessed tyrants. Do this, bring that, go there, come here.....the power of wealth corrupts the nicest of ordinary people.

And on a phycological level rich people send every day worrying what would happen if they lost it all; nobody would then respect them and all their 'bought friends' would avoid them.

The rich and famous have a terrible life; better to live a simple natural life.
WAY too many generalizations here. So, if we're waxing philosophical:

One of the most unassuming, down-to-earth guys I know belongs to my sailing club and races a beat up 35-year-old sloop, with a market value well under $5K. People who just meet him would never guess he started his self-made fortune with a discovery in his basement, once owned one of the most venerable yacht labels in the world, currently has a 135-foot schooner (among other large boats) and bought his first yacht from Prince Rainier of Monaco. When I crewed with him on cruises to Bermuda and the VIs, his private jet took us to wherever his boat of choice was and we were picked up in a stretch limo for the ride to the marina. Yet when people are told of his considerable wealth, they are always amazed because he drives an average car, dresses simply and is a guy you can have a beer with. I think he owns large boats because he can afford them and they can take him places his 24-ft sloop can't go.

Is he, in his heart, happy? He certainly seems to be without flaunting his wealth or talking down to people. He's relentlessly cheerful, courteous, kind and generous but I have no insight into his soul. I am convinced, however, that he goes boating for the joy of it, not as a substitute for . . . whatever you suspect well-off people are missing. I'm also convinced that if he lost it all tomorrow, he'd be just fine with the beat up sloop, as long as he could get out on the water. In this, he would be indistinguishable from half the members of my club, which includes everyone from day laborers to highly paid professionals.

So, maybe boating at a certain price point is for the rich, but boating per se is something anyone can do if they want it badly enough.
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Old 03-29-2015, 08:10 AM   #174
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My observation is that money merely accentuates what people already are.

Ordinary nice guy becomes a monster when he gains wealth? I dont think so - he was always a monster, you just didn't notice.

And the happy self-made folks? They were probably always happy, but who could blame them for being happier after making a bundle....
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Old 03-29-2015, 08:37 AM   #175
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Boating Industry & Demographic Facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Scarborough View Post
The one thing I am taking away from this is boating has become a rich man's lifestyle. What's changed? It didn't used to be like that.
No one I have known on a boat growing up ever had that kind of money and yet still had fine, pretty and well maintained boats.
.
Mick and others that have already responded...

I have followed this thread... casually and have to jump in with a response and my $.02. First - I'm a "show me the data" type guy vs opinions, generalizations & hearsay.

I have done a little digging in boating industry data as part of a project to save a NY State park marina - which we will likely lose the battle - but that's beside the point I'd like to make here.

The following are excerpts from
"NMMA 2011 RECREATIONAL BOATING INDUSTRY OVERVIEW"
and I consider FACTS! (Emphasis added is mine)

Industry Snapshot
Of the 231.5 million adults living in the United States in 2010, 32.4 percent, or 75 million people, participated in recreational boating. This is the highest proportion of participation in recreational boating since 1999 when 33.4 percent of adults were boating participants. These 75 million boaters represent an increase of 14 percent compared to the 65.9 million people who went boating during the recessionary year of 2009.
Boaters increased their spending on operating costs (insurance, docking, fuel, maintenance and boating outings) by 3.6 percent from $8.4 million in 2009 to $8.7 million in 2010

Estimated Average Price of Boats.
The average retail price of a new traditional powerboat (outboard, inboard, sterndrive, jet boat) in 2010 was $34,675, a decrease of 5.8 percent over 2009. Average price of a pre-owned powerboat (with engine) in 2010 was $14,039, an increase of four percent from 2009. Pre-owned powerboats accounted for 83 percent of all power and sailboats sold in 2010, up one
percentage point from the previous year.

Boating by Participation.
Of the 231.5 million adults living in the United States in 2010, 32.4 percent, or 75 million people, participated in recreational boating. This is the highest proportion of participation in recreational boating since 1999 when 33.4 percent of adults went boating. The 75 million boaters on the water in 2010 represent an increase of 14 percent compared to the recessionary year of 2009, during which went 65.9 million participated in boating.
The Great Lakes region had the greatest number of recreational boaters in 2010; approximately two of ten participants or 17 million boaters lived there in 2010.

Boater Demographics.
Boating continues to remain a middle-class recreational activity with 83 percent of boating participants in 2010 having a household income under 100,000. This is an increase of 1.4 percent in the number of middle-class participants over 2009.
People who boat as children are more likely to boat as adults; 77 percent of boating participants in 2010 boated as children.

Current boating participants were more likely to be male, younger than 50 and have a household income of $25,000–$75,000 in 2010.
Approximately 15 percent of boating participants in 2010 were age 65 or older; 21 percent were retired, up nine percent and ten percent respectively.
END OF NMMA Report Excerpts

My $.02...
Like Mick I have fond memories of our family boating growing up. As a result I and my 2 brothers all own boats - very different boats and we boat differently. We live within our means and we prioritize "things" in our lives differently. But... for those that choose to participate in boating it is as possible as it ever was... how you choose to boat is a decision everyone has to make and the possibilities are bounded by your available resources ($ being only one - knowledge, ability & desire to do your own work another...) and how you prioritize.

From the data above it appears to me that...
  1. Boating = getting on the water - and that's what counts... a case where size doesn't matter - first priority is get out there any way you can
  2. Costs are increasing roughly in line w/ inflation
  3. The demographics confirm that boating continues to be a middle class activity - with hi% participation
  4. If you boated as a child you will likely continue to boat as an adult
  5. New boat sales are a small % of the participation and isi not a good gauge of the cost of boating
  6. If we choose to boat we can find a way
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Old 03-29-2015, 09:12 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
Mick and others that have already responded...

I have followed this thread... casually and have to jump in with a response and my $.02. First - I'm a "show me the data" type guy vs opinions, generalizations & hearsay.

I have done a little digging in boating industry data as part of a project to save a NY State park marina - which we will likely lose the battle - but that's beside the point I'd like to make here.

The following are excerpts from
"NMMA 2011 RECREATIONAL BOATING INDUSTRY OVERVIEW"
and I consider FACTS! (Emphasis added is mine)

Industry Snapshot
Of the 231.5 million adults living in the United States in 2010, 32.4 percent, or 75 million people, participated in recreational boating. This is the highest proportion of participation in recreational boating since 1999 when 33.4 percent of adults were boating participants. These 75 million boaters represent an increase of 14 percent compared to the 65.9 million people who went boating during the recessionary year of 2009.
Boaters increased their spending on operating costs (insurance, docking, fuel, maintenance and boating outings) by 3.6 percent from $8.4 million in 2009 to $8.7 million in 2010

Estimated Average Price of Boats.
The average retail price of a new traditional powerboat (outboard, inboard, sterndrive, jet boat) in 2010 was $34,675, a decrease of 5.8 percent over 2009. Average price of a pre-owned powerboat (with engine) in 2010 was $14,039, an increase of four percent from 2009. Pre-owned powerboats accounted for 83 percent of all power and sailboats sold in 2010, up one
percentage point from the previous year.

Boating by Participation.
Of the 231.5 million adults living in the United States in 2010, 32.4 percent, or 75 million people, participated in recreational boating. This is the highest proportion of participation in recreational boating since 1999 when 33.4 percent of adults went boating. The 75 million boaters on the water in 2010 represent an increase of 14 percent compared to the recessionary year of 2009, during which went 65.9 million participated in boating.
The Great Lakes region had the greatest number of recreational boaters in 2010; approximately two of ten participants or 17 million boaters lived there in 2010.

Boater Demographics.
Boating continues to remain a middle-class recreational activity with 83 percent of boating participants in 2010 having a household income under 100,000. This is an increase of 1.4 percent in the number of middle-class participants over 2009.
People who boat as children are more likely to boat as adults; 77 percent of boating participants in 2010 boated as children.
Current boating participants were more likely to be male, younger than 50 and have a household income of $25,000–$75,000 in 2010.
Approximately 15 percent of boating participants in 2010 were age 65 or older; 21 percent were retired, up nine percent and ten percent respectively.
END OF NMMA Report Excerpts

My $.02...
Like Mick I have fond memories of our family boating growing up. As a result I and my 2 brothers all own boats - very different boats and we boat differently. We live within our means and we prioritize "things" in our lives differently. But... for those that choose to participate in boating it is as possible as it ever was... how you choose to boat is a decision everyone has to make and the possibilities are bounded by your available resources ($ being only one - knowledge, ability & desire to do your own work another...) and how you prioritize.




From the data above it appears to me that...
  1. Boating = getting on the water - and that's what counts... a case where size doesn't matter - first priority is get out there any way you can
  2. Costs are increasing roughly in line w/ inflation
  3. The demographics confirm that boating continues to be a middle class activity - with hi% participation
  4. If you boated as a child you will likely continue to boat as an adult
  5. New boat sales are a small % of the participation and isi not a good gauge of the cost of boating
  6. If we choose to boat we can find a way
Yo, Don - PERFECT! You provide a breath of fresh air onto this silly thread.

I reprinted your whole post in hopes that all TF viewers fully read it...

Thanks,

Art

PS: I'm printing a copy to have on boat for visitors' reading enjoyment and placing on file in computer.
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Old 03-29-2015, 09:32 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insequent View Post
My observation is that money merely accentuates what people already are.

Ordinary nice guy becomes a monster when he gains wealth? I dont think so - he was always a monster, you just didn't notice.

And the happy self-made folks? They were probably always happy, but who could blame them for being happier after making a bundle....
Thanks for this post. Money makes us more comfy not more happy, unless we are materialistic to begin with. I have been on both sides of the equation and can assure you that being comfortable is better. However, I was not less happy when I was struggling. Just less comfortable. Same great wife and wonderful child.
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Old 03-29-2015, 09:49 AM   #178
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Thanks for this post. Money makes us more comfy not more happy, unless we are materialistic to begin with. I have been on both sides of the equation and can assure you that being comfortable is better. However, I was not less happy when I was struggling. Just less comfortable. Same great wife and wonderful child.
Is boating for the rich......

In my definition 'rich' means you can pretty well buy anything you want without considering the price.

superyachts
Jets
Estates/Penthouse apartments all over the world
Staff

To run that lot You would probably need an income of tens of millions. So at a return of about 3% you would need capital of hundreds of millions.
I'm going to pencil in $200m as the minimum on the lowest step on the ladder.

That's going to change the person you are...........
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Old 03-29-2015, 09:56 AM   #179
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Wow...if rich is hundreds of millions...

I would love to be middle class with only a measly 70 million or so.
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Old 03-29-2015, 09:58 AM   #180
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Does this mean that the "I hate people with larger boats than me but my hatred is justified because they are unhappy" thread is coming to a close?
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