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Old 02-12-2015, 02:18 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by obthomas View Post
One thing I can say for certain.....I could not be doing the yachting I am doing if I didn't do most of the maintenance and repairs myself.
Cruising is doing your own maintenance on exotic locations. Yachting is having other people do your maintenance in exotic locations. You ain't yachting, amigo!!!!.....

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Old 02-12-2015, 02:36 PM   #22
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What are your expectations?
$5K buget mo. is only a bit less than what we have.

We have a townhouse, the boat, and truck/trailer. It's all ours though, sort of as I haven't managed to dodge taxes, but no payments.

Payments, unless darn small, will be trouble.

We were older though when we pulled the plug by 8-9 yrs.

Nothing we have is fancy, although comfortable.
I do ALL the mtce with a few exceptions and even then not without a fight to do it myself.

I agree about look a Janice's blog.

If need be don't quit at 50 but maybe 51/52 to get the kitty up. You have some options and one of them is when.

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Old 02-12-2015, 02:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by C lectric View Post

If need be don't quit at 50 but maybe 51/52 to get the kitty up. You have some options and one of them is when.

I am hoping to leave at 52. By leaving at 52 instead of 50, I will get an extra 100K. If I stay to 55 then I get another 200K. I already have high blood pressure from stress and really don't feel like shooting the dice for a mere 200K more. I have never been much for worshipping money and my personal feelings are life cant be bought. So I will not stay until 55. I cant collect the 100k until 57 though so I want to be well into my cruising when that kitty comes into my hands, it will be fun money (or a new damn motor ). My father is my inspiration for my entire life. He told me to live life to its fullest and not work until the grave. Its a beautiful world out there and I refuse to miss it.
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Old 02-12-2015, 03:02 PM   #24
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You can do a lot on $5K/month without being a squatter except if you need a lot of paid outside help.
Private residences offer reasonable long-term dockage. Search Craigs List for Dock or Slip.
Some big ticket items that are hard to avoid:
Insurance, especially if you boat in FL. The magic number seems to be a 30 year old boat. Over that, some insurers don't even want to talk to you.
Marina transient docks: Under $2/ft/night is my target when not anchored out. Different for everybody. You have to come ashore sometime.
Land home: One huge expense if its empty while you are cruising. We have 2! Fortunately they are very low maint cost properties. Property taxes are a killer.
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Old 02-12-2015, 03:02 PM   #25
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$70,000 in electronics....how can you do that on boat...ship maybe but boat???
Look, no property tax, if you cash it some, maybe a lot of leeway on sales tax. Still have yearly ins, maintance and so forth. On $60k you should be fine. Boat parts are sold by the troy ounce, so buy an already reconditioned boat planning on spending 10-20% of purchase price.
Yachtworld is full of em.
Go talk to Carl at Elite Marine in St Pete on Hickory Creek. Tell him Hobart sent Ya for advice, he will point Ya in the right direction. You can do this, affordability, comfortably. Not in a 2 million super yacht but easily in a reasonably sized trawler.
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Old 02-12-2015, 03:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Mule View Post
$70,000 in electronics....how can you do that on boat...ship maybe but boat???
It's very possible.
Thanks, Oliver
M/V Oliver
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Old 02-12-2015, 03:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Mule View Post
$70,000 in electronics....how can you do that on boat...ship maybe but boat???
Easy to get there, especially when you add in satellite communications capability.
Kevin Sanders
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Old 02-12-2015, 03:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Donsan View Post
You are asking what has changed in 40 years to make it seem like boating is for the rich?

Here are a few things that might make it seem that way:
1. Higher price for a barrel of oil and other commodities
2. The revaluation of currencies (dollar down, others, specially Asian currencies up)
3. Added costs of Government regulations such as EPA mandates
4. Higher international labor costs
5. Growing populations competing for fixed resources such as water front property
6. Declining US real income and standard of living
7. Changing climate and higher insurance rates caused by increased occurrences of natural disasters

In summary, there has been a decline in our standard of living.

I would say you didn't list the biggest change.

Higher Expectations.

Nowadays people "need" plenty of power to get there fast; air conditioning is a "must have" ; the latest hi-tech electronics need to match; only the best anchor will keep a boat safe; active stabilizers are required to venture out of protected waters. It never ends.

It's not just boats. Look at today's 1st home buyers. They "need" 2+ bathrooms, 4 bedrooms, granite bench tops, ceramic tiling, etc etc.
The cost of building a house hasn't increased as much as the expectations.

If you can control your expectations, you can control the costs.
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Old 02-12-2015, 03:58 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by AusCan View Post
If you can control your expectations, you can control the costs.
Great point.

When we first went boat shopping we where quickly looking at boats well over 40' and significantly more money than we spent. One look at my avatar photo will tell you we went in a different direction. Just because you can afford something does in no way mean you should buy it. In our case the larger, more expensive boat would have been a complete disaster. While we have entertained the thought of getting out of boating entirely recently it has nothing to do with our choice of boats.

A realistic definition of our mission made our choice clear. Your budget looks entirely realistic if your expectations are too.
Craig - AKA Some Clueless Idiot

The person who is saying something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
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Old 02-12-2015, 04:01 PM   #30
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Boating is what you make it....a small sailboat gets you a lot of boating and travel for cheap.

Beyond 40 or so years ago it was a dedicated sport....only the dedicated or the rich had more than runabouts. It seemed like hardly anyone I knew even in shore towns had more than a runabout....now it seems like everyone has something at least in the 20s and maybe a pair of jet skis.

With the advent of glass boats and cheaper outboards (in comparison)....and less technical and/or backbreaking boating skills such as caulking seams required....and the irrational financial exuberance of the 80s and 90s sent boating in an upward spiral it seemed to me.

Boating a rich man's sport?...Nah....maybe BIG boating has become one as I could not afford my boat if I didn't live aboard and do all the work myself.
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Old 02-12-2015, 04:05 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Mick Scarborough View Post
I will be able to pay $60000 cash for a boat upon retirement. I have 2 homes in Tampa. The rent I get for one pays the mortgage on both. But I will probably sell at least one of them as managing a rental home from agar is not doable. Pretty much I wont have many bills and I wont finance a boat.
Then there are plenty of boats you can afford for $60,000 and you'll be able to enjoy on $5000 per month. Just don't get more boat than you'll be able to manage the costs on. Every foot adds marina costs. Every engine adds cost. I quite imagine the boats your family and neighbors enjoyed were simpler than many of today's boats. 65', twin engines, two generators, watermaker, every piece of electronic equipment imaginable you won't be able to afford. But that's not necessary. Smaller boat, single engine, just the equipment you determine you need or absolutely want. That boat is still affordable.

As to what has changed in the costs of boats, it's really what we put in and on them. The other costs have gone up relatively close to inflationary rates although some a bit greater. But many of the boats of today have equipment not invented 40 years ago and certainly equipment most boats didn't have. Strip it down to basics and it's a different story.
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Old 02-12-2015, 04:33 PM   #32
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Higher expectations. Boats have gotten bigger and fewer are wiling to cruise on anything not gold plated. I miss the water community of even just a few years back.
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Old 02-12-2015, 07:11 PM   #33
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Hey Mick,
All of the above is true and I thought a lot of the same. I have a 2006 Mainship Pilot 30, although I purchased her 3 years ago for 80K I have learned about and maintained her myself for way less by doing maintenance myself. I enjoy doing it and its not rocket science, I am a union pipefitter by trade and a lot of it come natural if you are mechanically inclined and with the help of Boat Diesel, common sense and the luck of finding an engine parts distributor that is willing to give pointers it is doable. I just pulled my heat exchangers and cleaned, replaced gaskets and painted them for less than $100. Granted it was a labor of love but it is definitely doable as I am not rich either. Just be sure you are willing to dig in after researching a project. I run her every weekend whether its cruising, fishing, hangin at the sandbar, overnighting for the weekend or running south to the Keys.
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Old 02-12-2015, 07:41 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mick Scarborough View Post
The one thing I am taking away from this is boating has become a rich man's lifestyle. What's changed? It didn't used to be like that.
Everything "used to be like that." When I got my various pilot licenses and ratings in the 1970s, a new-ish Cessna 150 rented for $10.50 an hour in Honolulu, and the instructor was another $7 an hour. The "big" Cessna 206 I flew a lot for work and pleasure cost me $26 an hour.

When I moved to Seattle in 1979, a 206 cost me over $100 an hour. Today, I'm told that same plane is well over $200 an hour.

So, boats. Right now diesel fuel is free, but before and again soon it will be $4-$5 a gallon. In the 16 years we've had our PNW boat, moorage cost has just about doubled. Our insurance, somewhat surprisingly, has stayed about the same. Electricity at the dock is higher.

And labor rates are way higher. The average labor rate for yard employees, diesel mechanics, marine electricians, etc. is about $100 an hour or a wee bit more in the town where we keep our PNW boat.

Bottom paint is way more expensive than it used to be. When we started using Bristol finish on our boat's exterior teak 14 or 15 years ago I believe it was $30-something a kit. Today it's close to $60 per kit.

Whether or not cruising boats are for the wealthy depends entirely on the boat in question. Sixty thousand dollars can certainly buy a decent boat to go cruising in. But whether or not the kind of boat $60,000 will buy appeals to you or not is totally up to you.

And when contemplating what kind of boat to get for x-amount of dollars, don't do what a lot of people do and overlook the ongoing annual ownership cost. Ownership cost consists of everyting it costs you per year to own and operate your boat other than finance payments. So moorage, insurance, electricity, fuel, service, maintenance, repair, and upgrades.

A VERY rough rule-of-thumb cost to help you get at least a handle on what your annual ownership cost will be is ten percent of the purchase price of the boat per year. These days with the increased cost of everything, it's probably more like fifteen percent.

The annual ownership cost of a brand new boat will probably be significantly less, and the annual ownership cost of an ancient beater could be significantly more. And even with a given boat, some years will be more and some less depending on what breaks and what kind of costs you incur during a given year. But a very rough average to use for "awareness" purposes is ten to fifteen percent of the purchase price every year that you own the boat.

A fair amount of people get into boating without taking the ownership cost into account, and a fair amount of people get into serious financial difficulty as a result.

Then you have to define wealthy. To a guy in Somalia these days, $60,000 US dollars a year is staggeringly wealthy. To the residents of Medina (Bill Gates' neighborhood on Lake Washington) $60,000 a year is dirt poor.

In this neck of the woods, you can buy a nice Tolly 26 for twenty-something thousand and cruise all ove the place: Puget Sound, San Juan Islands, Gulf Islands in BC, up to Desolation Sound and beyond. We have several friends who've been doing this with this make and model of boat for ages.

Or your can spend $100,000 to $150,000 and get a older but nice smaller Grand Banks. You can spend less than that for a GB but it will get you a pretty old boat that most likely will need a fair amount of work.

Or you can spend $200,000 to $400,000 and get a nice, newer, and larger Grand Banks.

Or you can spend close to $1 million and get a brand new Grand Banks.

Match the kind of boat you want with the kind of money you have and you'll have your answer if cruising boats are only for the rich.

PS-- Is your avatar photo the actor Rob Wells from Trailer Park Boys?
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Old 02-12-2015, 09:43 PM   #35
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Yep, its Rob. TPB is one of my favourite shows.
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Old 02-12-2015, 11:53 PM   #36
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Is boating for the rich? Feeling dismayed

Originally Posted by Mick Scarborough View Post
When I retire in 2 years I will have a $5000/month pension. In reality that puts my income at more than the vast majority of working American households with two incomes...
Um, no it doesn't. The average American income was almost $43k in 2012. https://bber.unm.edu/econ/us-pci.htm

Average is a tricky word, skewed by outliers, so median is more often used.
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Old 02-13-2015, 12:57 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
Sailors read Latitudes and Attitudes to encourage casting off.

Power Boaters read Passagemaker to discourage casting off.

Wow NS, you said in two lines what took about 30.

I think we underestimate the influence Passagemaker has on us all, because we forget that PM is really a marketing tool of Nordhavn.

And Nordhavn pushes their model of expensive redundancy.

Think about it. How many Nordy adventures have we read that usually something breaks down, maybe an electric toothbrush, and the owner spends $5,000 to have a new one flown.

$5,000 is my entire year's cruising budget.

The power boat readings are more about stuff, the sailing readings more about destination.
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:18 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mick Scarborough View Post
Yep, its Rob. TPB is one of my favourite shows.
Yes, it is one of the most unique television series I've ever seen. Terrific imaginations, that bunch. As a film/video producer/director/writer I'm always looking for the clever little touches. One of my favorites is how Julian is always portrayed with a drink in his hand no matter what he's doing and he never spills a drop, even when he rolls his vehicle.

And I did not realize that they made a new season last year. If you've seen it, is it as good as the previous seasons in the earlier 2000s?
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Old 02-13-2015, 02:45 AM   #39
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The best advice we got was "don't buy the biggest boat you can afford, buy the smallest you can live on". We have a 36' Gulfstar that we bought cheap and spent 2 years fixing up. We simplified our life style to make cruising possible. Few dinners out, no cable, movies from the library or netflix. Sold the house and most of our stuff. Doing all the work ourselves makes it all possible. Our income is less than yours, and we are very comfortable. One of the biggest challenges is to separate Wants from Needs. Some folks won't cast off without 3 separate gps systems operating. People have safely navigated with charts, clock, and binocs for centuries. Simplify. We have a 30 amp system. The First Mate is smart. she knows the amp draw of everything on the boat, and can do the math when it comes time to fire up the galley. AC draws 10, so she has 20 to play with. Simple. When people say "Oh, you must be rich to cruise" we tell them we are. Our needs a simple, we live within our budget, and have dollars left over at the end of the month. I always remember that song from "Porgy and Bess" called "I got plenty of nothin".

I got plenty of nothin, and nothin's plenty for me.
I got no car, got no home, got no misery.
The folks with plenty of plenty, got a lock on the door.
Fraid' somebody's going to rob them while they're out making more.
What for?

What for, indeed?
"Keep putting off till tomorrow, and you'll end up with a lot of empty yesterdays" Prof. Harold Hill
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Old 02-13-2015, 03:42 AM   #40
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I agree about reading Janice of Seaweed,
Just get out there and "JUST DO IT"
No one needs 2 dunnys and showers and all the electronic fruit to smell the salt air and breathe the freedom.
Buy what u can afford with some in the kitty for repairs and grog

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