Boat Prices: Has the world changed????

[bnoft]

Packing gland.....is that near the thyroid gland? Or closer to the sphincter?

 

[kthoennes]

Like a stuffing box - eaten with gravy and cranberry sauce at Thanksgiving.

 

[Nick14]

Suspect the market will collapse when we die off. Due to demands made on the average middle to upper middle class two income two child family there’s neither time nor money for a cruising boat. Trailer and rack boats may be possible but not trawlers with the time and money required. Being a boat owner speaks to how you envision yourself. It’s part of your persona. The retirement transition from small boats to big boats is based on that persona. That’s mostly absent in our offspring and nearly totally absent in those who didn’t grow up in boating families.
Cost escalation may hasten this result but unless we bring on new boaters think it’s inevitable. It’s the same problem facing ski resorts and golf courses. Even hunting has this problem. They also require significant expenditures, time and dedication to be any good at it. And until you have a basic skill set not as much fun.

I think you're right. The generation(s) coming behind us, Gen X-ers and Millennials, seem to have neither the interest in boating, nor to be on life paths that would give them the disposable income to engage in such an expensive hobby.

 

[Nick14]

I haven't done any 'quantitation,' but my subjective impressions are that there seem to be substantially more boats being listed for sale on yachtworld than there were last February or the year before.

I seem to recall some days in the past two Februarys with either no new used boat listings, or often a low single digit number. Now most days the number of new listings seems to be in the teens.

Some asking prices are still (IMHO) insanely high, but at the same time I'm also noticing more emails from brokers advertising price cuts on boats that have been on the market for a while. I've also noticed a few boats initially listed at 'lets find a sucker' prices, and then substantial cuts in relatively short times (one has had its price cut in half over a few months).

Maybe the first signs of a cooling (normalizing?) market for this year? People trying to get a jump on the spring market, or get in before the market cools off any further?

The beginnings of a declining market, for any thing, can be tumultuous and amusing to watch. Like a saying goes on Wall Street, "Don't try to catch falling knives."

 

[Jeff F]

I think you're right. The generation(s) coming behind us, Gen X-ers and Millennials, seem to have neither the interest in boating, nor to be on life paths that would give them the disposable income to engage in such an expensive hobby.

Mmm. There will always be X% with disposable income. I've met some pretty free-spending techies.

Those that have the boating itch will seek different ways to scratch it vs earlier generations, I think.

 

[Jeff F]

I'll bet our 12 year old is the only kid in his school who ever used a dial caliper to measure a prop shaft and packing gland so we can order the packing and re-stuff it in the spring. I'll bet he's the only kid in his school who even knows what a packing gland or stuffing box is.

My upbringing was like that. I spent a month one summer helping my dad install a hot water heating system in our house from scratch. That after tearing apart the hot air furnace and trying unsuccessfully to repair. My maternal grandfather was a farmer who could fix anything.

My three kids have no interest in that. Here in Ontario we swap to winter tires for a few months a year. I've always done that myself. My kids, aged 24-30, have not. The youngest recently asked how to do it, and we did it together last fall in the driveway. Better late than never

But they're getting on fine in the world, solving problems of different sorts.

 

[Nick14]

Mmm. There will always be X% with disposable income. I've met some pretty free-spending techies.

Those that have the boating itch will seek different ways to scratch it vs earlier generations, I think.

You're right, I wasn't thinking about the infamous tech bros with more money than common sense. You're also right in that they seem to prefer to spend their money on things other than boats.

 

[rslifkin]

I'm relatively young compared to most on here. But I did grow up boating. And I learned to work on my own stuff for a couple of reasons. Partly because it's cheaper, meaning I can afford to do more stuff, and partly because it's honestly less of a pain to just do a lot of things than to get someone else to do it.

 

[Jeff F]

I grew up boating in a big way, then dropped out to raise a family, and now am back to boating in a big way. But if I hadn't done it earlier there would have been huge barriers for me to do what I've done in recent years.

The pipeline/progression model has broken down I think due to the real pressures of raising a family, both time and money. So big boating may not be on the table. That was certainly the case with me. When I had money my partner and I ran the use case and couldn't find any rationale for spending it there.

On the plus side I continue to enjoy racing small sailboats. And have a very nice bicycle collection. It's not all bad.

But getting back in was a mild sticker shock. And if I hadn't been determined, patient, experienced, handy, and able to solve problems with my credit card it probably would be over for me. Big boats, that is.

 

[JustCruisin]

I think the market for reasonably priced trunk cabin trawlers will remain strong. Especially for those that have been well maintained...mostly because no one is building these type of boats anymore. The cost to build a 36' trawler with a solid teak interior and trim would be very expensive today. These older boats in my opinion will continue to be desireable and there are some nice boats available under 200K. While you could spend 500k or more for a newer tug that just does not fit a lot of budgets...including mine. What your boat is worth is up to you...did I pay too much for my boat? Could I sell it and get my money back? I would have never bought it if that was my main concern...I bought it because if I didn't someone else would! That's the market today and going foward...just my opinion, whatever that is worth...

 

[O C Diver]

Imo, the problem with the boat market is the same with the house market and the car market. People for the most part look at the monthly payment and not the selling price. So while inflation has raised the price of new houses, new boats, and new cars, it's the interest rates that have put the brakes on buying. While I think this bodes well for the used market as most won't be able to afford new, there is a small percentage of each market that doesn't have to finance. When the boating buying market will pick up will likely be tied to the lowering of interest rates.

As a side note, saw a thread on TF where Safe Harbor was allowing slip holders unlimited transient dockage at other Safe Harbor marinas. They were also selling large quality fuel purchases at cost. To me, that speaks volumes on what they think their business will be in 2023. It costs nothing to offer transient dockage to your customers if you're expecting them to stay home because of fuel costs. Also, I imagine the fuel reduction probably has to do meeting buying commitments and not getting stuck with expensive fuel sitting in storage tanks all summer.

Ted

 

[Jeff F]

As a side note, saw a thread on TF where Safe Harbor was allowing slip holders unlimited transient dockage at other Safe Harbor marinas. They were also selling large quality fuel purchases at cost. To me, that speaks volumes on what they think their business will be in 2023. It costs nothing to offer transient dockage to your customers if you're expecting them to stay home because of fuel costs. Also, I imagine the fuel reduction probably has to do meeting buying commitments and not getting stuck with expensive fuel sitting in storage tanks all summer.

I interpreted that a bit differently. I think SH is trying to create an umbrella that covers the needs of their members. Pay them the lion's share of your annual costs and they'll take care of you.

It doesn't cost anything to offer transient slips that are being paid for by traveling slip holders.

 

[O C Diver]

I interpreted that a bit differently. I think SH is trying to create an umbrella that covers the needs of their members. Pay them the lion's share of your annual costs and they'll take care of you.

It doesn't cost anything to offer transient slips that are being paid for by traveling slip holders.

I've seen nothing from Safe Harbor that isn't about maximizing profits. Probably their highest profits come from transient slip rentals, especially if a seasonal slip holder has already paid for the slip, and is traveling.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

An outlook on future boating...like all research....who knows?

https://www.verifiedmarketresearch.com/product/boat-market/

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. ps. Your link triggers a virus/malware warning on my computer.

 

[backinblue]

Greetings,
Mr. ps. Your link triggers a virus/malware warning on my computer.

Worked fine for me

 

[psneeld]

Greetings,
Mr. ps. Your link triggers a virus/malware warning on my computer.

Are you still in quarantine?

 

[rslifkin]

I've seen nothing from Safe Harbor that isn't about maximizing profits. Probably their highest profits come from transient slip rentals, especially if a seasonal slip holder has already paid for the slip, and is traveling.

Ted

That's likely the case, but I wonder if they've determined it's more profitable to attract more slip holders and keep the slips full than to try to get more money out of transients from their other marinas?

 

[Art]

An outlook on future boating...like all research....who knows?

https://www.verifiedmarketresearch.com/product/boat-market/

Those #'s don't sync with what I notice during recent decade in SF Bay and Delta areas... But, by taking all North America into account my "boat-market" sight in basically blind and useless - - who knows??

 

[rgano]

Contrary to the thought that the "younger" generations will not be interested in trawlering as a result of their seemingly frenetic and disconnected life styles, I believe that there is nothing exceptional in the current elder generations, especially those in the vanishingly small percentage of those generation which enjoy slow cruising. As the youngsters age, I think there will always be that portion who have the will, means, and desire to continue the privilege of the slower life afloat.

 

[FWT]

These things definitely run in cycles.

Time gets away from me, but it was maybe in the 1980's that golf exploded in popularity from being a fringe sport. A ton of new golf courses were built. After a decade or two it started to die back off somewhat and a lot of those courses went bust. And then there was another resurgence.

One thing well understood is that the millennials value "experiences" over ownership of the suburban mini-mansion. Some number will find that cruising is the experience for them as they age and are ready to give up mountain climbing, backpacking, and biking across third world countries. To make that dream reality, what they will need is reasonable access, and we all know what that means. Availability of insurance for newbies, a reasonable shot at a slip in a marina, and so forth.

As the demographic bulges ebb and flow it will feel like popularity ebbs and flows, when its really mostly about the number of people within the age bracket sweet spots.

Availability for entry makes this point related. We have at various times chatted about how few NEW marinas are being built. Few is always the answer. But what that doesn't include is how many old run-down marinas are being significantly upgraded and rebuilt. When I bought a small cruising sailboat in my middle twenties living in Baltimore area, I was early in my career and did it on a shoestring budget. I found the cheapest marina anywhere. It was a mess of a place, but I had a slip on a dock that needed a lot of work. But I could afford it, barely. Today that place is a resort style marina with pool and restaurant and gas dock. Upscale. When I had more money I moved next door to a much nicer marina. That one too has been seriously upgraded. All good for boating. It raises the cost to play the game, but you can't do it at all if you have no place to put it.

 

[Hippocampus]

I think the market for reasonably priced trunk cabin trawlers will remain strong. Especially for those that have been well maintained...mostly because no one is building these type of boats anymore. The cost to build a 36' trawler with a solid teak interior and trim would be very expensive today. These older boats in my opinion will continue to be desireable and there are some nice boats available under 200K. While you could spend 500k or more for a newer tug that just does not fit a lot of budgets...including mine. What your boat is worth is up to you...did I pay too much for my boat? Could I sell it and get my money back? I would have never bought it if that was my main concern...I bought it because if I didn't someone else would! That's the market today and going foward...just my opinion, whatever that is worth...

We blew the money for that tug. Then another really big lump to get her up to snuff. Bought (and sold) at the top of the market. Only justification for such behavior is YOLO. The YOLO attitude is based on our closing horizon for time we will be capable to boat. This set of circumstances exists for us aging baby boomers. It doesn’t for our offspring. Downside is boat yoga hurts me now and I pay for it days afterwards. Used to enjoy doing the projects but that’s mostly gone. Other new obstacle is although YouTube is a blessing sourcing stuff is so much harder when you are a newbie to a particular boat. Used to be able to go to the local mom and pop chandlery. Tell them what you were trying to do. Thy teach you what you needed. Try that at a West or an internet chat. Now unless you know the correct detailed name for a part it’s hard to do an internet search and know in advance you’re buying the right part. Think it’s much harder now to do a project for the first time. Even the casual help and teaching you would get from slip mates is less.

 

[Art]

Contrary to the thought that the "younger" generations will not be interested in trawlering as a result of their seemingly frenetic and disconnected life styles, I believe that there is nothing exceptional in the current elder generations, especially those in the vanishingly small percentage of those generation which enjoy slow cruising. As the youngsters age, I think there will always be that portion who have the will, means, and desire to continue the privilege of the slower life afloat.

As I look around in SF Bay and Delta... at thousands of of crafts in boatyards, mariners and yacht harbors throughout Marin and San Joaquin Nor CA counties; i.e., relatively affluent communities/towns. And, also I had opportunity to well review on the Bay and Delta waters' boat use:

Vastly predominant number of boats docked or used [wet or dry] are "old(er)". And, I've had years and years of [boating season] on water review as well as [during the last couple years] sometimes several months at a time of back to back 8 hour days of pleasurably looking over SF Bay [while I directed my construction crew atop a great vantage point to see wide swarth of the Bay].

So... my conjectured opinion:

It appears a large %age of docked boats are getting quite old [just look at the age of boats on TF!]. Also, it seems that we-persons caring for our-their older boats are getting - well - older too! In reality... too many boats have already for years or are semi-recently beginning to sit dormant, with little to no care for too long... in comparison to decades past.

Additionally - Increasing numbers of forlorn older boats that basically never get paid attention to are simply "wasting away". And, it sure looks like the %age of "never" boats increases each year. However, due to really good "older boat" construction methods these ol' baby's just keep on a floating; cared for or not, dirty or not, used or not, ripped canvas or not, interior mildew or not, seized engine or not, etc... With that said: Hundreds to thousands of bygone era boats that no one any longer wants/cares to finance will eventually reach a critical mass. What will happen then is anyone's guess.

I'd imagine there will eventually become need to dispose of financially abandoned boats... estate circumstances etc, etc. Which makes it seem to me there will eventually become a large amount of vacant slips; not to mention a bunch of really inexpensive [nearly free to own] boats that could be rejuvenated... if anyone might care to do so??!!. Maybe the boating manufacturing industry will create a group of "new-age" boat designs that replenish "boating-interest" into younger persons?? Sort of like being underwater - the boat-building-industry may in the relatively near future need to hold its breath for a long time!

 

[slowgoesit]

And I learned to work on my own stuff for a couple of reasons. Partly because it's cheaper, meaning I can afford to do more stuff, and partly because it's honestly less of a pain to just do a lot of things than to get someone else to do it.[/QUOTE]

And less expensive in the long run than hiring a "professional" to do work, then having to pay again to do it yourself to fix all the stuff the "professional" screwed up . . .

No disrespect to the Quality Professionals out there who do quality work, but I only know two of those, and a LOT of other "Professionals" who I wouldn't let work on my non-motorized push mower . . . .

Seriously, the main reason we do our own work is that if/when something breaks when we're far from civilization, we're already pretty familiar with the boat and it's systems, that we can generally either jury rig it temporarily, or at least identify the parts we need to fix it, order them, and then and have them shipped to some place we can pick them up to install ourselves!

 

[socalrider]

And I learned to work on my own stuff for a couple of reasons. Partly because it's cheaper, meaning I can afford to do more stuff, and partly because it's honestly less of a pain to just do a lot of things than to get someone else to do it.[/QUOTE]

And less expensive in the long run than hiring a "professional" to do work, then having to pay again to do it yourself to fix all the stuff the "professional" screwed up . . .

No disrespect to the Quality Professionals out there who do quality work, but I only know two of those, and a LOT of other "Professionals" who I wouldn't let work on my non-motorized push mower . . . .

Seriously, the main reason we do our own work is that if/when something breaks when we're far from civilization, we're already pretty familiar with the boat and it's systems, that we can generally either jury rig it temporarily, or at least identify the parts we need to fix it, order them, and then and have them shipped to some place we can pick them up to install ourselves!

I'm not young (just turned 48) but probably younger than most folks out here. I have zero people in my network of friends and even acquaintances my age who own a boat. Few older retired friends/mentors do.

I think it's mostly a time issue: I agree with the above & cannot imagine the combination of hassle and expense (or alternatively expense and expense) that it would take to be a credit card captiain - it's just way out of my league to be on the sort of "yacht program" where the boat is kept up professionally, washed, waxed & buffed for whenever the owner is ready to use her.

Below that expense threshold I've found that good professionals, when asked for help, will basically show up when they have a gap in their schedule. I did this once to get an injector pump rebuilt (among other things) on my old sailboat's 4.108. The boat was out of commission for 3 months while various parts were sorted, new issues were found, etc. I think it cost around $5000 by the time it was up and running.

In 3 months I could have learned how to do it all myself, found the local shop where he got the rebuild done, etc. etc. But most people in my age bracket are too busy working & driving kids around to do anything but pay someone & hope the job gets done. That's to say nothing about the learning curve of operating & maintaining these vessels more broadly.

In sum: it's totally unsurprising that old people own boats. I do worry that my generation isn't getting the exposure necessary to be ready to step up to larger vessels, but on the other hand YouTube University is an amazing thing, so I'm not sure demand will fall off a cliff, at least for well kept vessels.

 

[psneeld]

I can only hope they pick the right Youtubers to listen too.

 

[rslifkin]

I'm not young (just turned 48) but probably younger than most folks out here. I have zero people in my network of friends and even acquaintances my age who own a boat. Few older retired friends/mentors do.

I think it's mostly a time issue: I agree with the above & cannot imagine the combination of hassle and expense (or alternatively expense and expense) that it would take to be a credit card captiain - it's just way out of my league to be on the sort of "yacht program" where the boat is kept up professionally, washed, waxed & buffed for whenever the owner is ready to use her.

Below that expense threshold I've found that good professionals, when asked for help, will basically show up when they have a gap in their schedule. I did this once to get an injector pump rebuilt (among other things) on my old sailboat's 4.108. The boat was out of commission for 3 months while various parts were sorted, new issues were found, etc. I think it cost around $5000 by the time it was up and running.

In 3 months I could have learned how to do it all myself, found the local shop where he got the rebuild done, etc. etc. But most people in my age bracket are too busy working & driving kids around to do anything but pay someone & hope the job gets done. That's to say nothing about the learning curve of operating & maintaining these vessels more broadly.

In sum: it's totally unsurprising that old people own boats. I do worry that my generation isn't getting the exposure necessary to be ready to step up to larger vessels, but on the other hand YouTube University is an amazing thing, so I'm not sure demand will fall off a cliff, at least for well kept vessels.

There are definitely some jobs worth having done and occasionally I find one of those. But for the stuff that doesn't require an overly specialized skill or an expensive special tool, it's nice not to be bound by someone else's schedule. And I can usually make enough time to do it, although sometimes it's a stretch. Although we don't have kids in the picture yet, as that may change the time situation (we're only 30).

As slowgoesit pointed out, the familiarity with the systems is a big benefit. Both when you need to fix something in an unfamiliar place and just for generally being able to pick out when an issue is developing.

 

[smitty477]

There are definitely some jobs worth having done and occasionally I find one of those. But for the stuff that doesn't require an overly specialized skill or an expensive special tool, it's nice not to be bound by someone else's schedule. And I can usually make enough time to do it, although sometimes it's a stretch. Although we don't have kids in the picture yet, as that may change the time situation (we're only 30).

As slowgoesit pointed out, the familiarity with the systems is a big benefit. Both when you need to fix something in an unfamiliar place and just for generally being able to pick out when an issue is developing.

"But for the stuff that doesn't require an overly specialized skill or an expensive special tool, it's nice not to be bound by someone else's schedule. And I can usually make enough time to do it, although sometimes it's a stretch. Although we don't have kids in the picture yet, as that may change the time situation (we're only 30)."

In our experience the folks in and around your age group do not have skills with tools or with systems like these nor do they appear to have any motivation to secure any such skills.
That is not a negative in any way within their life itself, but it does pose a larger barrier for older boats future health and relative value.

 

[rslifkin]

"But for the stuff that doesn't require an overly specialized skill or an expensive special tool, it's nice not to be bound by someone else's schedule. And I can usually make enough time to do it, although sometimes it's a stretch. Although we don't have kids in the picture yet, as that may change the time situation (we're only 30)."

In our experience the folks in and around your age group do not have skills with tools or with systems like these nor do they appear to have any motivation to secure any such skills.
That is not a negative in any way within their life itself, but it does pose a larger barrier for older boats future health and relative value.

Looking around at people I know, I don't see a whole lot that know just a little or dabble in DIY stuff. It seems like most are either clueless about it (some might want to learn but never had exposure to it, others couldn't care less) or they're pretty much all-in.

 

[smitty477]

Looking around at people I know, I don't see a whole lot that know just a little or dabble in DIY stuff. It seems like most are either clueless about it (some might want to learn but never had exposure to it, others couldn't care less) or they're pretty much all-in.

That is what we have seen - our daughter (about 30) is a dockmaster in teh summer at a busy public transient dock and gets to see many boaters each year. More often than one would expect she ends up lending a tool or help to boaters that do not have a clue. Many boaters carry little or no tools now and many of our daughters' friends have never seen some tools or a simple VOM. Between our daughter and future son in law they end up 'helping and working' on many other boats each year.
Really kinda forms a large problem for older boats that have many problems for there continued use - many/most of which would be considered 'simple' by this board.