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Old 02-12-2016, 12:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by scurvy-yard-dog View Post
The boat is listed here. Endeavour boats for sale - YachtWorld

It's the 9th one down in the far left hand column.
Endeavour 37 A-PLAN (1)

I'm not ready to buy it because I have a house to sell but I'm trying to learn how to tell if a boat is being offered at a fair price. Should I sell my house quickly where I could make an offer, what kind of offer would a boat like this bring?
Well, it is listed at Horizon Marine Center (the broker listed in Yachtworld) so I'm not sure how it's FSBO. Perhaps because the broker spelled the manufacturer's name wrong (Endeavor vs. Endeavour)?

You've clearly got the itch for this boat, but I have to say it looks like a very average boat, from a very average builder, with average equipment, in somewhat below average condition. The sun damage, the water damage evident on the bulkhead at the chair locker, the overall neglect - this boat was respected and invested in some time in the past but it really looks let go to me notwithstanding the replacements in the past several years.

I can't spot the air conditioner - where is it? I did see a vent in the saloon so I believe there's something somewhere, but I suspect it's marginal for this boat in a hot climate.

As to your question about selling your house quickly - and presumably realizing a lower price - I don't know your market or how fast you earn your money, but it would almost certainly be a poor decision from a net worth perspective. But if you've got the fever there's really no way I can communicate all the warning bells I'm hearing.
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Old 02-12-2016, 02:22 PM   #22
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If you plan to keep it in FL, I would hope you are keeping in mind insurance rates are very high in FL due to tropical storms even though we have had any in 11 years.
LOL.... insurance is high on everything in Florida and not just because of storms. I used to live in South Beach and if it wasn't chained down, someone would steal it.
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Old 02-12-2016, 02:26 PM   #23
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Well, it is listed at Horizon Marine Center (the broker listed in Yachtworld) so I'm not sure how it's FSBO. Perhaps because the broker spelled the manufacturer's name wrong (Endeavor vs. Endeavour)?

You've clearly got the itch for this boat, but I have to say it looks like a very average boat, from a very average builder, with average equipment, in somewhat below average condition. The sun damage, the water damage evident on the bulkhead at the chair locker, the overall neglect - this boat was respected and invested in some time in the past but it really looks let go to me notwithstanding the replacements in the past several years.

I can't spot the air conditioner - where is it? I did see a vent in the saloon so I believe there's something somewhere, but I suspect it's marginal for this boat in a hot climate.

As to your question about selling your house quickly - and presumably realizing a lower price - I don't know your market or how fast you earn your money, but it would almost certainly be a poor decision from a net worth perspective. But if you've got the fever there's really no way I can communicate all the warning bells I'm hearing.
I have the itch but not for this boat. I'm just trying to get an idea what it's really worth so I can guesstimate how much additional will have to go into it. I don't need specifics but I don't want a $36k boat turn into a $50k boat before it can be launched.

This is the kind of feedback that is helpful to me and I thank you.
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Old 02-12-2016, 05:25 PM   #24
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This is the kind of feedback that is helpful to me and I thank you.
Well because it's Friday afternoon and I'm trying to avoid doing some work, here's some more - value it for what it costs (that would be zero!).

Let's assume you do a deal at $30K. And a sea trial, haulout ($250), and survey ($300) shows nothing major wrong. There are lots of minor things, but let's just assume that it is what it looks like. So it runs, no major issues with structure, engine, or rigging. Most of the gear works. All of the safety gear is missing or out of date, but you're on your own. $30K, plus 6% Florida sales tax, and it's yours.

Insurance: $50/month (you can't get moorage without insurance)
Moorage: $400/month (wild guess here, $10/ft)
Utilities: $30/month for power, water's free, no TV, you might get wi-fi
Maintenance: $300/month minimum. I'm figuring you find someone who can maintain the boat for $25/hour & 3 hours/week. You could spend zero one month, $200 the next on a fresh water pump. This isn't going to get the woodwork in yacht club condition, but maybe it won't deteriorate further. Over time you might get some skills and tools and be able to take over most of this yourself, but then you're also not going to be earning money so there's some opportunity cost. And parts are expensive.

So...$800/month to keep the boat in essentially the same condition, tied to the dock, you living aboard. If you want to start using it then you're going to pay for fuel. You're going to end up doing more maintenance (and that generator looks sketchy). You'll pay guest moorage fees (or if you anchor out nearby, maybe you can "cruise" for very little).

But there are some surprisingly expensive pieces of equipment on that boat. The PV panel on the aft arch. The dinghy on davits. The windlass. The SSB radio. The winches. All of them are well used and...something might go tits up at any point. So you're going to need to keep a reserve fund to pay for replacing them as they reach end of life. $200/month reserve would, again, be minimum.

So...$1,000/month to live on a boat on the water. It won't be an end tie in a swanky marina with lots of facilities and it won't cover refurbishing and improving the boat, but it could be equivalent to "rent".

And then it's time to sell the boat. No hurricanes, no major change in boating tastes, but...let's say it's now 10 years down the road and the boat is 10 years older. What's it worth then? $25K? So you lose another $5K, and another $2,500 in brokerage fees when you sell it.

Tons of assumptions, but that's not an unreasonable scenario.
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Old 02-12-2016, 05:58 PM   #25
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I'm not ready to buy it because I have a house to sell but I'm trying to learn how to tell if a boat is being offered at a fair price. Should I sell my house quickly where I could make an offer, what kind of offer would a boat like this bring?
My thoughts on what to offer may offend some people ( especially the sellers).
But I'd start with an almost insulting offer...depending on condition and length of time for sale. For that boat I'd insult them with a 20k offer.
Honestly it doesn't look in great shape. The boat we just purchased started at 59k and we settled on 32k. The last phone call from the broker went something like this...Broker: "What's your best offer?"
Gerry " ummm maybe we can do 34? ( me in the background waving frantically NO)" Broker" Well the seller wants 38" Gerry " Sorry can't do it." Three minutes later the broker calls back and says" what does your wife say your final offer is?"

We got it for 32!

I've done this with cars, houses and boats...if you have cash and are willing to walk away, there will be a good boat etc. out there for you.
Good luck.
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Old 02-12-2016, 06:59 PM   #26
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Ah, such a common topic on boating forums but always fun to talk about. Our first bid on a big boat was about 90% of the asking price, but the seller scotched the deal over a $700 repair issue that arose after a survey. Dumb and annoying. Next big boat we offered about 50% of asking price. They were insulted and blew us off. Three months later, they called us back and took it. Next big boat, I watched it for months, too high, too high -- the seller finally wanted to just unload it, did eBay (even though it was listed with a broker) and I bid an incredibly, ridiculously low price, actually the opening bid he set on eBay, and at about 50% of his initial asking price with the broker. Miraculously nobody bid against us and we got it (and the seller was a fantastic guy and honored the bid price and could not have been more helpful). Then we had to sell that first big boat we bought, listed it on Craigslist in December in South Dakota, frozen like a popsicle in a boat storage yard covered in ice and snow. I never dreamed it would sell until spring, I figured I'd just get it out there for kicks, Craigslist is free, might as well. Sold in two weeks for about 90% of asking. The day I showed the boat it was literally twenty below zero.

So in short, boat sales are nuts. I've given up trying to be rational about it.
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:27 AM   #27
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Well because it's Friday afternoon and I'm trying to avoid doing some work, here's some more - value it for what it costs (that would be zero!).

Let's assume you do a deal at $30K. And a sea trial, haulout ($250), and survey ($300) shows nothing major wrong. There are lots of minor things, but let's just assume that it is what it looks like. So it runs, no major issues with structure, engine, or rigging. Most of the gear works. All of the safety gear is missing or out of date, but you're on your own. $30K, plus 6% Florida sales tax, and it's yours.

Insurance: $50/month (you can't get moorage without insurance)
Moorage: $400/month (wild guess here, $10/ft)
Utilities: $30/month for power, water's free, no TV, you might get wi-fi
Maintenance: $300/month minimum. I'm figuring you find someone who can maintain the boat for $25/hour & 3 hours/week. You could spend zero one month, $200 the next on a fresh water pump. This isn't going to get the woodwork in yacht club condition, but maybe it won't deteriorate further. Over time you might get some skills and tools and be able to take over most of this yourself, but then you're also not going to be earning money so there's some opportunity cost. And parts are expensive.

So...$800/month to keep the boat in essentially the same condition, tied to the dock, you living aboard. If you want to start using it then you're going to pay for fuel. You're going to end up doing more maintenance (and that generator looks sketchy). You'll pay guest moorage fees (or if you anchor out nearby, maybe you can "cruise" for very little).

But there are some surprisingly expensive pieces of equipment on that boat. The PV panel on the aft arch. The dinghy on davits. The windlass. The SSB radio. The winches. All of them are well used and...something might go tits up at any point. So you're going to need to keep a reserve fund to pay for replacing them as they reach end of life. $200/month reserve would, again, be minimum.

So...$1,000/month to live on a boat on the water. It won't be an end tie in a swanky marina with lots of facilities and it won't cover refurbishing and improving the boat, but it could be equivalent to "rent".

And then it's time to sell the boat. No hurricanes, no major change in boating tastes, but...let's say it's now 10 years down the road and the boat is 10 years older. What's it worth then? $25K? So you lose another $5K, and another $2,500 in brokerage fees when you sell it.

Tons of assumptions, but that's not an unreasonable scenario.
Thanks, Refugio. Good to know but many of them I'm aware of, like slip fees, insurance, utilities and maintenance. Those are the ones that I know about, although I have no idea the details of maintenance. My plan is to set $10k to $20k aside just for emergency repairs and then the ongoing maintenance can come of out my budget, which I know I won't use every month.

The things that are beyond me are things like extra added fees that only someone living on a boat would know about. Did I read somewhere that you have to pay fees for cruising the waters of certain islands or that a trip through the Panama canal could cost $17k?

I do appreciate the insight and I'm consuming everything that I can. Again... thanks.
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:37 AM   #28
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My thoughts on what to offer may offend some people ( especially the sellers).
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So in short, boat sales are nuts. I've given up trying to be rational about it.
Thanks guys. I'm a cash buyer and don't have a problem walking away in hopes of a better deal. I've seen enough of Richard Rawlings to not worry about hitting someone with a lowball offer.

I've dealt enough in cars and motorcycles to know that there's always another one out there that'll fit the bill. I'm looking for that boat that was owned by that little old couple (related to the little old lady that only drove her car to church on Sundays) that maintained her well and just doesn't have the time or room for her in their lives anymore and will get more out of fulfilling someone else's dreams and seeing her go to a good home as opposed to trying to make bank.

She's out there if I'm patient.
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:56 AM   #29
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Thanks, Refugio. Good to know but many of them I'm aware of, like slip fees, insurance, utilities and maintenance. Those are the ones that I know about, although I have no idea the details of maintenance. My plan is to set $10k to $20k aside just for emergency repairs and then the ongoing maintenance can come of out my budget, which I know I won't use every month.

The things that are beyond me are things like extra added fees that only someone living on a boat would know about. Did I read somewhere that you have to pay fees for cruising the waters of certain islands or that a trip through the Panama canal could cost $17k?

I do appreciate the insight and I'm consuming everything that I can. Again... thanks.
Keep in mind Refugio is on the west coast and not in FL. If you keep a boat in FL during Hurricane season, your rates will be 4-5 times higher for say a 36' boat than what he has suggested. There is a reason so many boats head north before hurricane season besides the weather.
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:38 AM   #30
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Keep in mind Refugio is on the west coast and not in FL. If you keep a boat in FL during Hurricane season, your rates will be 4-5 times higher for say a 36' boat than what he has suggested. There is a reason so many boats head north before hurricane season besides the weather.
Hey Donsan.... thanks for the heads up. I lived in South Beach at one time so I know a little bit about the higher rates whether on land or sea. If the weather didn't get ya, the crime would. Where do most cruisers go during hurricane season?
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:56 AM   #31
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Hey Donsan.... thanks for the heads up. I lived in South Beach at one time so I know a little bit about the higher rates whether on land or sea. If the weather didn't get ya, the crime would. Where do most cruisers go during hurricane season?
I am not aware of how far north you have to be to get the lower rates. What I was suggesting is some snowbirds would leave their boats in FL all year round instead of making the trek down and up the ICW if insurance rates in FL were not so exorbitant. Some owners haul their boats here during summer months. Some might even keep 2 boats, one at home and one in FL, if rates weren't so high hurricane season.

Even though I am a long time Floridian, I keep my boat on the Great Lakes and have a summer home up there and my insurance rate is more like $75/mo.
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:23 PM   #32
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I am not aware of how far north you have to be to get the lower rates. What I was suggesting is some snowbirds would leave their boats in FL all year round instead of making the trek down and up the ICW if insurance rates in FL were not so exorbitant. Some owners haul their boats here during summer months. Some might even keep 2 boats, one at home and one in FL, if rates weren't so high hurricane season.

Even though I am a long time Floridian, I keep my boat on the Great Lakes and have a summer home up there and my insurance rate is more like $75/mo.
Do the higher rates extend to all Gulf states, or those along the eastern seaboard, or is it just Florida? I have a friend with a vacation home in Galveston that I could hang out with for lower rates.

I'm sure the Great Lakes are beautiful. I've never visited them other than putting on a photo seminar at a resort on Lake Erie one time. What I do know is that they don't look like this. :so cool:
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Old 02-13-2016, 05:24 PM   #33
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The boat is listed here. Endeavour boats for sale - YachtWorld

It's the 9th one down in the far left hand column.
Endeavour 37 A-PLAN (1)

I'm not ready to buy it because I have a house to sell but I'm trying to learn how to tell if a boat is being offered at a fair price. Should I sell my house quickly where I could make an offer, what kind of offer would a boat like this bring?
Without seeing the boat in person and better knowing it's market there is no way to really answer. If I was making an offer only on the basis of what I know right now, it would not be anywhere close to the asking price. Perhaps after seeing it and examining it, one would feel better about it.
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Old 02-14-2016, 07:12 AM   #34
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"If you keep a boat in FL during Hurricane season, your rates will be 4-5 times higher for say a 36' boat than what he has suggested. There is a reason so many boats head north before hurricane season besides the weather."

Some folks find it cheaper and easier to go to a Hurricane Hole , have the boat stored (and insured) in a structure built for hurricanes.

Not cheap tho, and of no use for a liveaboard. Others simply go to a inland local marina and liveaboard there .

Superb air cond a must!!!!

LaBelle, Florida - River Forest Yachting Center.

www.riverforestyc.com/index.php/locations/labelle-florida


River Forest Yachting Center - LaBelle offers Gulf Coast boaters convenient storage ... and is located on the Caloosahatchee River just east of the Ortona Lock.
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Old 02-14-2016, 01:08 PM   #35
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"If you keep a boat in FL during Hurricane season, your rates will be 4-5 times higher for say a 36' boat than what he has suggested. There is a reason so many boats head north before hurricane season besides the weather."
That's just not necessarily true. Perhaps with some insurers it is, but there are plenty of insurers with plenty of boats in FL year round and they are not 4-5 times higher than they are elsewhere. You just have to find the right marine insurer, not a conventional insurer who does boats as a side business.
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Old 02-14-2016, 05:55 PM   #36
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Considerations

Scurvy,

One of the things you have to come to grips that is that you will spend almost all of your non-sleeping time in the cockpit of a sailboat. Make sure that the cockpit is roomy enough for you and anyone you might have a board. Imagine yourself at sea for hours on end with two or three of your mates. Small cock pit can become smaller overtime.

Also, there is no five minute job on a boat that doesn't deserve five hours. I have seldom undertaken any boat task other than routine maintenance that did not take 3 to 5 times as much time as I had originally planned. Also, you will be doing many of these repairs for the first time. Boat parts ain't cheap.

Nothing wrong with endeavors. Frankly I would not pay much more for a so-called quality boat then I would for and endeavor or Beneteau.

Boats are easy to buy and often inexpensive. They become expensive however to maintain through time. Just make sure you have enough cash to maintain your boat to the standard that you desire.

Good luck,

Gordon
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Old 02-14-2016, 06:12 PM   #37
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I do repairs on my truck, an '05 GMC Sierra. It has about 185,000 miles on it and about 80,000 on the motor, which was replaced by the dealer when I bought the truck used.

I've owned it almost 4 years now and have replaced brakes, tie-rod ends, rack & pinion steering, shocks, put new dual exhaust on it and new tires as well as regular maintenance and I've done all the work myself except for the tires. The good thing is that I know all of the parts are new and have been done right.

I"m guessing a used boat will require the same attention. The most important thing with the boat is to purchase one that has been well maintained with records. From what I'm hearing from others that I've been talking to, problem boats come from people who neglected them.

As for insurance, I'll have to check into it. Having lived in South Beach for awhile, I know about Florida being the fraud capital of the world, which probably has a lot to do with high insurance rates. Another member brought it to my attention that a lot of people see storms as a way of getting out from under a boats expenses and let them 'ride the storm out' so to speak. The insurance companies have to pay for that.

All good points you bring up and they're much appreciated.

Regarding the Endeavor, I have a survey on the boat and there's a lot that the rest of you aren't aware of. I obtained a copy just so I could see what it's all about. I doubt the boat will be around when I ready to buy.

Gordon, you mentioned Beneteau and I've read a lot of people who look down on them and say they are a poor choice for taking offshore. I've been talking with a gentleman in Florida that's taken his to France and back as well as Hawaii. I kind of like the Beneteaus.

As for whether or not it'll be sails or diesels still remains to be seen. I lean one way for awhile and then the other. I hope I have it all figured out by the time my house sells but if not, I'll be patient and wait for the right deal. Hopefully I'll recognize it when it comes along.

Thanks to all.
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Old 02-14-2016, 07:47 PM   #38
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I do repairs on my truck, an '05 GMC Sierra. It has about 185,000 miles on it and about 80,000 on the motor, which was replaced by the dealer when I bought the truck used.

I've owned it almost 4 years now and have replaced brakes, tie-rod ends, rack & pinion steering, shocks, put new dual exhaust on it and new tires as well as regular maintenance and I've done all the work myself except for the tires. The good thing is that I know all of the parts are new and have been done right.

I"m guessing a used boat will require the same attention. The most important thing with the boat is to purchase one that has been well maintained with records. From what I'm hearing from others that I've been talking to, problem boats come from people who neglected them.
I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to disagree with about everything you mentioned except that neglect causes problems.

Well maintained and with records? Sorry, that's car-think. If the owner maintained it then you might get purchase records for major equipment, and probably owners manuals. If a yard did it, then you'll have a receipt that may say something like "installed xyz: 10 hours". And if you are dealing with a brokerage boat, those records may or may not be on the boat.

And your mechanical analogy is almost completely misguided. The car has a manual. It has an owners forum on the internet and probably a dealer to supply parts. And there were thousands of them made almost exactly the same - by the same workers. Except for a few premium companies like Hatteras, forget about all of that. Even well built boats were done one-off with much of the work done by semi-to-unskilled laborers.

And that's as the boats left the factory. They were then "improved" by the dealer. And they were then butchered by a succession of owners and workers - almost never doing more than fixing what breaks. And then there's the stuff that's broken that you don't know about.

Every single bit and bob on the boat is non-standard and spent its entire life in a harsh environment. Every single bit and bob that was added was...left over from another boat...bought at West Marine (that's the good stuff)...scavenged at a flea market...or repurposed from something at, say, Home Depot.

EVERY material on a boat is unlike ANY material on a car. Wiring is tinned against corrosion. Paints...sealants...the metals themselves...all different.

Those mechanical skills will have some application in working on the engine, and perhaps the windlass. Beyond that, not so much.
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Old 02-14-2016, 10:07 PM   #39
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I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to disagree with about everything you mentioned except that neglect causes problems.

Well maintained and with records? Sorry, that's car-think. If the owner maintained it then you might get purchase records for major equipment, and probably owners manuals. If a yard did it, then you'll have a receipt that may say something like "installed xyz: 10 hours". And if you are dealing with a brokerage boat, those records may or may not be on the boat.

And your mechanical analogy is almost completely misguided. The car has a manual. It has an owners forum on the internet and probably a dealer to supply parts. And there were thousands of them made almost exactly the same - by the same workers. Except for a few premium companies like Hatteras, forget about all of that. Even well built boats were done one-off with much of the work done by semi-to-unskilled laborers.

And that's as the boats left the factory. They were then "improved" by the dealer. And they were then butchered by a succession of owners and workers - almost never doing more than fixing what breaks. And then there's the stuff that's broken that you don't know about.

Every single bit and bob on the boat is non-standard and spent its entire life in a harsh environment. Every single bit and bob that was added was...left over from another boat...bought at West Marine (that's the good stuff)...scavenged at a flea market...or repurposed from something at, say, Home Depot.

EVERY material on a boat is unlike ANY material on a car. Wiring is tinned against corrosion. Paints...sealants...the metals themselves...all different.

Those mechanical skills will have some application in working on the engine, and perhaps the windlass. Beyond that, not so much.
From a guy who has crawled through literally thousands of boats, this is probably the most realistic answer I have seen to this question.
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Old 02-14-2016, 10:16 PM   #40
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I am a bit of a contrarian about boat ownership. Yes there are some fixed costs like insurance and moorage. However, beyond that the costs can be a lot less than mentioned above. In general boat systems are really pretty simple, although boat yards would like you to believe otherwise. The only thing that makes working on a boat engine more difficult than working on an automotive engine is access. That is true for most systems. But if you know the basics of electrical work, diesel mechanics, fiberglass repair, basic woodworking and painting, you can maintain most boats pretty cheaply. Personally I maintain two cruising boats for a lot less than $300 a month and that includes paying for new goodies. For example, last year it cost me about $300 to paint the topsides and trim on my boat, varnish the cabin house AND paint the bottom. Normal annual engine maintenance runs about $55-$60 (change engine and transmission oil, replace all filters, winterize engine for winter storage). This year I will spend an additional $250 or so to repair a 3'x6' hole in my hull topsides.

If you develop the skills you can maintain a boat for very little.
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