Anything I can "legally" do about this?

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If it'll make you feel any better, the engine hour meter on my Lehman 120 was reading 3500 odd hours when I bought it. The PO admitted he did not know when it stopped, because it did not go 'bop' when it stopped, or 'whir', when it stood still, but it has not moved since. I have used the boat 15 more years and it still runs like a sewing machine using very little oil, and starts first plonk every time. :D
 
You have a claim against the surveyor, if you wish to pursue it. The hour meters are basic items that should have been checked. That is why you hire a surveyor, to inspect and test systems and equipment. He would have professional liability for the oversight. His contract may suggest that he assumes no liability, but most of that is to convince others not to file a claim, and doesn't actual hold water legally.

You may have a claim against the seller for failure to disclose a defect of which he should reasonably have known. The purchase contract may try to absolve him of responsibility once the inspection period expires. You would have to read the contract. If the transaction was for real estate, there is still seller liability for failure to disclose a known defect regardless of the disclaimer. Law regarding boats is its own world and only a maritime attorney could give you a valid opinion for your specific situation.

Only you can decide if you want to pursue either the seller or surveyor, but don't dismiss the idea because of the advice you are getting here. Everyone has an opinion, but most of them in this thread are legally incorrect.

I try to stay out of these threads but couldn't stand by this one any longer.

Good luck.

Well, your theory is filled with weaknesses. First, this isn't real estate and isn't subject to any of the disclosure laws. It isn't even subject to auto sales laws.

This is not a maritime law issue, just a simple contract law issue.

Now, let's just say he sued the surveyor and won, which based on most survey contracts isn't likely. But then there's the question of proving damages. So far, there is no evidence of any damages.

Now, as to legal advice no one here is claiming to be an attorney. However, just because you might have some legal rights, doesn't mean it's worth pursuing them. You really want to spend money on lawyers to win a case where you can't prove damages? Oh, you want to prove the owner knew. Fine. Better hire an investigator, pay fees, incur the legal cost of depositions. He could sue in small claims court but doesn't have the evidence needed. To take this aggressively through the court system then would cost ten's of thousand's of dollars. You''d have to prove how many more hours it had and that the party knew it had that many, then the value of that loss.

There are two elements that would have to be proven.
1. That whoever you're suing made a material misrepresentation with the intent of misleading the buyer and causing harm to the buyer.
2. That the buyer actually suffered financial harm as a result and what the amount of his loss was.

This is the kind of suit no one ever benefits from unless some other piece of vital information suddenly surfaces.
 
It depends 100% on what your contract says (or doesn't say). If you really want to know where you stand, find a good contract lawyer, pay a couple hundred bucks and get the answer. Then, you can decide where to go from there or if it makes more sense to just let it go.

At least you'll know where you stand this time and what to watch for next time.

Paul
 
I think he should fix the hour meters.
 
I think he should fix the hour meters.

I once rented a U-Haul truck. I drove it well over 1000 miles and then took it to return it. Very nicely I told the lady that the mileage was incorrect, the odometer not working properly. Before I could get more out and explain it was not recording miles, she rudely jumped on me basically yelling that they went by the reading and if I'd felt it wasn't right I should have returned it, not kept driving it. I said, so whether it over records or under records, you only go by what it reads. Now even more rudely she says, yes, because people make up things all the time. I said, "Then I guess you're firm on that. The person checking it in and she rings it all up and charges me for less than 200 miles. I paid, then looked at her and said, "You might want to get the odometer fixed." She doesn't let up exclaiming there's nothing wrong with it. I laugh and tell her that, ok, but I drove over 1000 miles and I tell her where I drove. Then she says "Well, you should have told me that." I told her that I tried but she wouldn't ever let me get it out and insisted my word didn't matter.
 
As previously mentioned, what do the log books say?
 
Assuming the temp gages are reasonably accurate,

Donna has absolutely the right attitude to her engine.
That Merc engine properly maintained will last the life of the boat, we'd a couple with over a million miles without major overhaul.
Like any make of engine YOU MUST maintain it correctly and it'll never let you down.
The Perkins T6354 is an absolute cracker of an engine and will certainly see your day out provided you adopt Donna's attitude towards care and maintenance.


The loss of coolant could be down to simple heat expansion because the header tank is not that large, or, sticking thermostat, keep an eye on the temperature gauge during warm up, if it rises to 90c quickly, then drops back to 70c and then begins to rise slowly to working temp, change the thermostats.
Happy Cruising.

I made it a point during the run to monitor the temps and the oil pressures regularly, even lifted the engine space access mid way during the days run to inspect for anything unusual or leaks.

Temps rose consistantly during warm up. Did note a temp increase when running at higher RPM's (180F @ 2300) but cooled back down to consistant 165/170
 
I say you're lucky to have that boat with diesels. I've seen so many SR aft cabins out here that were all gassers.

Congrats on your new toy! Cheers!

Thank you, Yes we zeroed right in on this one for that exact reason.
 
BandB said "This is the kind of suit no one ever benefits from unless some other piece of vital information suddenly surfaces."

I respectfully disagree, I have been involved in a few law suits over my career and won all of them and the only person who benefited was the lawyer. I supported quite a few. Sadly.
 
My engines came with hour meters in the tachometers. I once noted that I had failed to turn the ignition key all the way off on one engine. They had been within a few hours of each other before that event, but one was now over 30 hours ahead. I have thought of deliberately letting the lower meter catch up in the same manner, but haven't.
My boat also has another pair of hour meters, from the previous engines. But as the original meters on those engines had each failed and been replaced, those meters record only the hours accumulated between putting them in and replacing the engines.

In my view, hour meters are useful only for keeping track of periodic usage, and should not be relied on for total hours.

If you based your purchase decision on total hours, you missed most of the important criteria for determining engine longevity. The most important criterion is the presence of a thorough log of maintenance. You would want to know all of the maintenance done for the life of the boat. That is rare, but at least you could look for a boat with a thorough maintenance log by the last owner, provided he used the boat for at least a year and did actually put some decent number of hours on the boat. Second most important is a survey, including the results of an oil sample taken just before a timely oil change. That will tell you something about wear in the engine.
 
BandB said "This is the kind of suit no one ever benefits from unless some other piece of vital information suddenly surfaces."

I respectfully disagree, I have been involved in a few law suits over my career and won all of them and the only person who benefited was the lawyer. I supported quite a few. Sadly.

Sounds like you're for the most part agreeing with me. Suits of this sort just don't benefit anyone normally. Litigation attorney's do benefit. If reading my full post, you'd see that by other piece of vital information, I'm talking about something that proves fraud and shows real damages. Not likely in this case. I've never been avoided in law suits and intend to keep it that way. I pay the lawyer to help me avoid them, not end up in them.
 
BandB

Your one of a few I usually agree with on this site and in this case we are in agreement 100%. I paid lawyers to keep me out of law suits too but I ran into a few bone heads and ended up in court, I always won (if I wasn't sure I could win I would have settled) but they all cost money and the lawyers went home happy. We all hate attorneys until we need them, I had enough law in school to know when I needed one.:)
 
Even with 3 years of it being broken and the PO going 200+ hours per year, it will not really take any of the longevity off those motors if they were maintained properly.

You're fine. Don't sweat it. :-D
 
Thanks to all who contributed and commented.

I like the boat, My wife "loves" the boat.

I'll do my part to sort thru the minutiae just to have documentation. She'll decide on what the new bedding fabrics will be.

I'll send a letter to the surveyor, she'll help me with updating, maintenance and sorting things out.

In spite of this issue, we'll not stress about it and definitely (already) enjoy the boat.

Thank you to everyone for the comments and taking the time to do so.
 
One of the best things about this forum is the willingness of members to share their experience and for the most part keeping a calm demeanor. I was a lurker for years before I joined and went to the Ft. Pierce outing a few months ago and met some of the nicest best people I know.
 
I was a lurker for years before I joined and went to the Ft. Pierce outing a few months ago and met some of the nicest best people I know.

I'm pretty sure those were Amway sales people and not TF members. :flowers:


:hide:
 
As previously mentioned, what do the log books say?

I think this is an important point.

If the meters don't work, but the log shows the hours run, then probably not a concern. But, if the log is deficient and the meters don't work, how do you know if the PM has been properly done or not?

Jim
 
TomB

Your being gracious to those people, actually I think most had no visible means of support and were on boat to avoid (you pick) INS, local po po, IRS, drug agents, Nuclear authority, ect.:socool:
 
Irv, you're the one being gracious. Everyone knows the East Coast TF crew are bunch of scalawags not to be trusted near your alcohol. :angel:
 
As previously mentioned, what do the log books say?

I agree with this. Did the PO not keep logs? How else do you know when to change the oil and filters? Certainly the PO can produce such a log, and if they didn't then I'd suspect them of being imprudent. Keeping detailed logs is important.
 
Your beef should be with your surveyor.

:thumb::thumb:Yep, pretty much:thumb::thumb:
Maybe a chat and a small refund on the survey cost might be in order.
At least that's what I would do if I missed something in an inspection.
 
Thanks to all who contributed and commented.

I like the boat, My wife "loves" the boat.

I'll do my part to sort thru the minutiae just to have documentation. She'll decide on what the new bedding fabrics will be.

I'll send a letter to the surveyor, she'll help me with updating, maintenance and sorting things out.

In spite of this issue, we'll not stress about it and definitely (already) enjoy the boat.

Thank you to everyone for the comments and taking the time to do so.

Awesome!
Time to start having some fun:lol:
Fairwinds... :thumb::thumb:
 
CP

Yes they consumed some alcohol, actually all of the hard stuff but a few beers were left over. Larry gave up finding ice and mixer and just poured it in his glass and Baker, he drank everything in sight. It all worked out well, the boat raised an inch or two and WR picked up over 100 rpms. I almost made up the money lost on booze in saving Fuel. LOL
 
And SCOTT stayed with the ladies and drank their allotment. :)
 
Note to self: cash in the 401K and bring more booze next year.
 
Even if the hour meters were dead on, were the hours accumulated idling at the dock or did the PO redline the tach every time the boat went out. Is the boat over propped so the engine is constantly laboring?
A more appropriate survey would include a compression check, oil analysis, oil pressure, fuel pressure, water temp, etc. Removing injectors for a compression check may require special tools and your surveyor may not have the tools or skills to do it. I presume the survey report was clear about what mechanical tests were down.
Missing a malfunctioning meter is a minor oversight.
Caveat Emptor
 
Greetings,
My wife and I recently purchased a 1982 36' vessel with Twin Perkins diesels from a broker. The engine hours were each individually listed on the brokers ad. We did the usual survey and sea trial and ultimately completed the purchase. Long story short, we just completed a 350 mile journey bringing the boat to our home marina and I noticed within the first 20 miles that neither of the engine hour gages was changing. After 350 miles and 39 hours of run time the engine hours remain exactly the same as was originally listed by the broker. Naturally we were happy that each engine had relatively low hours (1756 & 1538 respectively) which was a substantial part of our purchase decision. Now we have to wonder what the actual engine hours really are?

So much of our purchase decision was based on the engines having relatively low hours. Neither the owner/seller nor the broker ever made any disclosure that the engine hour meters were not working. Any suggestion on what we can do?

After reading through this thread (maybe I missed it) one of my first questions to you, to the surveyor, to the broker, and to the previous owner is why over a 200 hour difference on the engines. To me that is a flag that goes up and warrants a sound explanation. You said in your original post that so much of your purchase decision was based on the engines having low hours but it seems like someone did not do their homework. I am sorry to say that the buck and the blame does stop with you. Go and enjoy your boat
 
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There can be a number of reasons for differential engine hours. Running on one for economy,one defective engine for a long time, defective meters, etc. Maybe justifiable, maybe not.
 
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