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Old 11-17-2013, 11:34 AM   #21
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I like it, I think we are starting to narrow it down. So to continue to play devil's advocate....

Dingy alongside is not feasible option as I see it, due to offloading it during rough sea conditions.

I understand the limited HP gives me limited options but, as stated several times by others the need for axillary propulsion will probable never arise. Which is why I am trying to use it for AC generation. If it were to be needed I understand a course correction may be in order. For those of you not familiar with the 42KK hull, these boats "drift" forever without power. I have actually had to relearn maneuvering due to this. Power must be taken off WAY in advance. In comparison my old Mainship felt like it was dragging a tarp! It is just a very efficient hull shape. On the delivery home I experimented with RPM vs. head sea, following sea etc. I am content w/ low HP. If I wanted 50+ HP I would have bought one w/ twin 90 Lehmans.

Marty, What M# Yanmar do you have? I was looking on boatdiesel.com and didn't realize there were so many different ones.

I like the outboard idea. I've kicked around for a while more for dingy propulsion to elimnate gasoline/ethonal problems etc. I've gone as far as to design a horrible basterdized air cooled version connected to a larger (needed larger shaft and prop due to low RPM) lower unit. But noise and weight always kills it. I'll keep an open mind though.

Generator is axed. Too heavy. too much space, not efficient. Not going to "artificially" load it to keep it happy. I'd prefer a DC boat (think sail boat). The boat is already equipped w/ a huge solar array on pilot house roof, not objectionable at all! Also equipped with propane.

Batteries will only total a 100#, chum change for this hull displacement. Belt driven gen will be constant RPM due to wing engine in gen mode, also could add large alternator to wing for double duty (AC or DC or both Generation).

"energy independence" may have not been the proper term. How about "shore power independence"

FF, as far as boats/Krogens go I think your lack of first hand experience may be clouding your judgment. There are at least 2 on this forum that have made the trip, and I know of several more. My delivery home was offshore from Ft. Lauderdale to Beaufort NC, then ICW. This hull #61 has already crossed the Atlantic (I know this is not helping my case for needing a wing engine! since it did not have one)

link: Kadey-Krogen Yachts: Owner Insights: Voyages

Propane outboard is of interest, but will not suffice for dingy. Can't justify have one lying around and hope it works after extended storage time.

Thanks again for all the input, the wheels are spinning so to speak
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Old 11-17-2013, 11:39 AM   #22
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>

Energy independent usually translates to a propane range, reefer and HW.

while a Krogen is a fine cruiser , it is in no way an offshore passage maker , except in the finest weather.
We take for granted how easy propane is to get here in the USA, in many countries they only exchange bottles or you have to send them to the propane plant for a fill... major P.I.T.A.

There have been quite a few Krogens that have made long passages, east coast to Alaska on their own bottoms, across the Caribbean.. set up right they are a great boat.. and very fuel thrifty.

The outboard on the swim platform isn't a bad idea in theory.. but if bad weather caused a fuel issue in a main engine.. the pitching of a OB on a bracket hanging at the back end might cause it to be pretty useless as it will spend most of it time either cavitating or submerged.

I have a good friend that had a new 50' Christian Yachts trawler built with a hydraulic system to drive a genset, get home, thruster, windless, winches and pretty much everything but the head. The system was a total failure. The builder ended up pulling it all and installing a conventional genset and a hydraulic pump to run the remaining stuff except the get home.

I know it is possible too engineer a working hydraulic get home that works off the main shaft.. the Northern Marine 80 I am now associated with has one that can power off either 32k genset.
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Old 11-17-2013, 01:27 PM   #23
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The Yanmar on my Krogen 42 is model # 3GM30E YEU.

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Old 11-18-2013, 07:15 AM   #24
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>I have a good friend that had a new 50' Christian Yachts trawler built with a hydraulic system to drive a genset, get home, thruster, windless, winches and pretty much everything but the head. The system was a total failure. The builder ended up pulling it all and installing a conventional genset and a hydraulic pump to run the remaining stuff except the get home.<

Sounds like the builder saved money by not consulting with a hyd engineer.

Standard for lots of builders .
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:58 AM   #25
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No experience here.either, but that hasn't kept others from chiming in. So here goes...

If I were designing/building a single screw, voyaging yacht, for take-home power I would:

1. 2 same size generators sized to be loaded properly - most likely variable speed DC units.
2. Each would have a hydraulic pump of maximum size for HP of generator.
3. Hydraulic motor belted/chained to main shaft (maybe a clutch between gear box and shaft)

The advantage of this system is:

1. Redundancy
2. The two identical units are run alternate days keeping each in tip top condition
3. Big prop and rudder that is protected by keel and shoe.

A further advantage of DC generators charging the battery then inverting to 120 VAC is the electrical system is now "world" capable. The shore power inlet leads to a charger that uses any voltage from 90 to 300 and either 50 or 60 Hertz.

I find the idea of an off-center, small, unprotected prop not reassuring. I have heard first hand accounts of wing engines not even able to hold the bow into the seas. Give me the biggest prop and rudder when you need them most.
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:31 AM   #26
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. I have heard first hand accounts of wing engines not even able to hold the bow into the seas. Give me the biggest prop and rudder when you need them most.
I've been on Nordhavns with a JD 4045 that powers through the rotten stuff just fine. I've been on Selenes where the wing engine wouldn't engage the drive. I've seen Northern Marines where a piddly hydraulic drive would move the vessel if the genset were solely devoted to it and the popsicles then melted. Dashew's FPB 64 has a "get home" that can power the vessel at near 8 knots. It can be done right or wrong and is largely the builders choice unless otherwise directed.

Or better yet, just have a pair of big old reliable twins! Like a Coaster some have knowledge on.
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:32 AM   #27
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A large number of engine shutdown are fuel related. How do we protect the get home system from fuel issues?
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:44 AM   #28
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A large number of engine shutdown are fuel related. How do we protect the get home system from fuel issues?
Clean tanks, good filters and no leaks in the deck fills. Also, for those of us that travel afar, one tank that always has good fuel in it for those times you think you got some water or ?? from an iffy source.

Fuel related shutdowns can also be due to negligence, poor design and poor fuel lines. Avoiding the known bad fuel stops in far away places is prudent too.

But you know all this stuff Larry. Don't tell me you filled up at "Joes" when you shouldn't have!
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:33 AM   #29
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Bay Pelican is similar to many long distance full displacement trawlers. She has a complicated fuel system with manifolds, multiple fuel tanks, fuel polishing system, and long runs of fuel lines. This complicated fuel delivery system is probably the weak point for the engine(s). In 15 years the main has never failed but once when air got into the lines. The air also brought down the wing engine. Fortunately that time we were in open water and with the help of a Walbro pump we were able to safely get back to harbor.

Current thought is to put in a simple five gallon fuel tank for the wing engine with a direct short line to the Racor for the wing engine. This would reduce the likelihood of both engines going down because of fuel.

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Old 11-18-2013, 10:50 AM   #30
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Clean tanks, good filters and no leaks in the deck fills. Also, for those of us that travel afar, one tank that always has good fuel in it for those times you think you got some water or ?? from an iffy source.

Fuel related shutdowns can also be due to negligence, poor design and poor fuel lines. Avoiding the known bad fuel stops in far away places is prudent too.

But you know all this stuff Larry. Don't tell me you filled up at "Joes" when you shouldn't have!
No, we didn't fill up at Joe's. lol You answered the question as you also did in post 2: "keep adequate spare parts, increase your mechanical skills and rigorously practice preventative maintenances by the book".

The reason I asked it, this forum has many threads about "my engine died" and it usually turns out the poster had just changed filters and/or "adjusted" something. Marty brought to light the fuel delivery issue but I think 5 gallons might be to small and how do you keep it fresh?
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:52 AM   #31
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Here's a cockamamie idea for maintain game clean reserve for emergency.

1. Size a suitable tank for available space and estimated needs.
2. Mount this tank so the top is higher than main tank(s).
3. Return fuel through a large Racor/small element filter to this tank.
4. Have an over flow from top of the tank that by gravity will flow into main tank(s).
5. Have a supply from this tank to manifold and then to whatever motors you wish.

This fuel is essentially cleaned all the time, having passed through primary filter, engine secondary filter and final polishing filter. No maintenance or monitoring is necessary until you need it.

Any fuel experts here? Comments? I'm NOT an expert in this area.
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:43 PM   #32
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I had already contemplated the auxiliary fuel tank idea. All this talk of fuel is what originally had me designing a 48 volt DC auxiliary drive for main shaft. It made the electrical system a nightmare though for the different voltage requirements etc w/ converters. Did allow 24 volt large alternators etc. though. The thought was it would be immediately available (I know electronics fail too) and at least be able to run for a short period of time 1 - 2 hours before gen would have to be online.

Not to side track the thread with the above.

On the battery charger for international hook ups: I can't locate a charger of over say 100 amps or so for 50 hz. Looked at DC generation with essentially a 12 volt boat for a while. I am afraid to smallish dc generators will lack sufficient HP to run hydraulics. It is one of the reasons my boat currently has the 12 kw westrbeke - not for elec capacity, but for motor hp for hydraulic pump.

Keeps me coming back to direct drive shaft off auxiliary motor that I will dual purpose by using belt drive AC generator. Because of the flaws in every theory.

I agree with the maintenance, spares, knowledge etc. But like I said, I'm a belt and suspenders kind of a guy. Besides a 6 - 8kw northern lights gen $$ is not to far off my total $$ for wing w/ AC gen (also high amp DC alternator) and gives me much more versatility.
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:56 PM   #33
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On the battery charger for international hook ups: I can't locate a charger of over say 100 amps or so for 50 hz.
Europe (and much of the rest of the world) is lousy with the things. Check out a Mastervolt catalog.
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Old 11-19-2013, 06:31 AM   #34
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How do we protect the get home system from fuel issues? __________________

DAY TANK , used properly.
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