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Old 08-09-2014, 05:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Bay Pelican View Post
The hydraulic system for Bay Pelican's stabilizers has a ten gallon (US) tank with a heat exchanger connected to the raw water pump on the main engine.
Thanks.I knew there had to be something keeping all that hot fluid cool.
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Old 08-10-2014, 06:31 AM   #22
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The duty cycle will be the factor for weather extra cooling is required for hyd.

With a wing engine or hyd generator (powered from the main) the long cont. on time will need cooling.

For minor stiff , our boat has hyd steering , a full time pump pressurizes the setup , the wheel is a simple L/R valve with wooden spokes , and the AP is a Robertson that dimply opens solenoids to steer 2A fuse.

Only the surface area of the 5G or so gal aluminum tank is sufficient to cool the unit , so sez the steering system mfg.

When adding a Hyd windlass the hyd hoses were simply run thru the bilge for water cooling on the hoses , about 15-20 ft in the water.

AS the windlass is usually used at the start of the day for a few min after engine start , the cold hyd fluid is barely warm .

If we install a hyd dink hoist , again the on time would be too short to require a special heat exchanger.

KISS
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Old 08-11-2014, 01:11 PM   #23
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Bay Pelican do you know why Anne Louise is changing out power take-off for a wing engine? Did the power take-off not work well enough? We will be heading to the Caribbean next year so I want to get this figured out.
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Old 08-11-2014, 01:14 PM   #24
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I have been talking to Tom Button from Kadey Krogen and he said that they used to set up KK's with all of the wiring, and plumbing for the installation of a wing engine but found very few buyers had them installed. He sent me plans that they used to set up the engine room for a wing. Pretty crowded!
He also sent me some ideas that KK uses to add the power take-off from the Northern Lights gen. That to me looks like the most favorable at this point.
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Old 08-11-2014, 02:29 PM   #25
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Wesmar Co. ( I think?) makes a hydraulic system that attaches to the main prop shaft and it's powered by the pto from a 12 KW or larger generator. About 20 grand I recall; less than the price of a small 27 hp diesel and installation and strut and folding prop, etc.
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Old 08-11-2014, 04:00 PM   #26
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Just from my set-up's point of view-with the hydraulic chain drive off of gen set, you should address the drip-less bearing's and reduction gear's cooling/lubrication etc.. when in get home drive mode. May or may not have to make some adaptions.
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Old 08-11-2014, 04:43 PM   #27
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Just from my set-up's point of view-with the hydraulic chain drive off of gen set, you should address the drip-less bearing's and reduction gear's cooling/lubrication etc.. when in get home drive mode. May or may not have to make some adaptions.
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This is exactly why I've all but given up on installing a second inboard driving system. Right now, my genset relocation to the veranda gives me two other choices, one being that the crankshaft pulley of my genset is directly over the prop shaft. A small pulley on the genset, a large pulley on the shaft, and an idler pulley to produce tension is all that's necessary for a rudimentary get=home system. Still, the design doesn't consider any consequences of pulling against the side of the shaft, the effects on the PSS seal or lack of lubrication, the seal log itself, transmission bearings, or even the practicality of assuming that the main shaft and prop would not be part of the breakdown issue.

The diesel outboard with it's own day tank makes an independent system that isn't subject to main engine, electrical, fuel, or drive-line failures. Above a knot or so, the boats rudder becomes responsive and there's no need to steer the outboard, Above two knots, maybe even the auto-pilot could be engaged. If the rudder has also been damaged, there again, one has an alternative way to steer the boat. In a pinch, docking from the veranda or cockpit with hand control on the outboard might be challenging, but hardly impossible. Frankly, I don't like the idea of an outboard hanging on a stern bracket. I just can't think of anything more practical or easy to do/undo. I already have two starting batteries, a fuel supply from the main tanks, a day tank space, and a solar charger all within 6 ft. of my stern.
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Old 08-11-2014, 04:49 PM   #28
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Larry, I'm with you an auxiliary motor hanging on the swim platform does not seem practical to me. It might be functional, but not practical. I also don't have a lot of room unless I go into my engine room and start rearranging.
Hoping we would get someone that has actually gone through an installation of a wing engine and/or the PTO take-off.
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Old 08-11-2014, 04:59 PM   #29
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Sorry, looked up the proposal and it was 14k
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:29 PM   #30
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Larry:
You touched on a very good point in that you can have numerous back-up systems for just about everything on a boat and sure enough it will be the point they come together or the one part that wasn't backed up that will fail. Or the one thing that they both require whether it be fuel, prop or whatever. Sometimes I think it would be better if I just towed a back up boat with me.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:19 PM   #31
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Sometimes I think it would be better if I just towed a back up boat with me.
dan
Yeah, in fact, Janice brought that up not so long ago in the case of Man-a-Tee, a Krogen 36 that tows it's own tow boat, a big inflatable with big ole bull-bars on the front and I think a 40 HP outboard, which through a special stern-mounted hitch, will push the Manatee at 4 knots and has it's own auto-pilot. It would definitely limit one to towing the dinghy underway, but it would do (and has done) the job. He does have a super-heavy mast and cradle setup for putting the dinghy aboard when docking at a marina. I suppose this design was boiled down from many happenings during the boat's 23 loops and 4 down-Island round trips.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:10 AM   #32
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So how old was your Coolant pump and why did it fail? With an old single engine vessel replacing things that rotate is a good thing to do wing engine or not.

Now if you had twins -----
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:53 AM   #33
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The diesel outboard with it's own day tank makes an independent system that isn't subject to main engine, electrical, fuel, or drive-line failures. Above a knot or so, the boats rudder becomes responsive and there's no need to steer the outboard, Above two knots, maybe even the auto-pilot could be engaged. If the rudder has also been damaged, there again, one has an alternative way to steer the boat. In a pinch, docking from the veranda or cockpit with hand control on the outboard might be challenging, but hardly impossible. Frankly, I don't like the idea of an outboard hanging on a stern bracket. I just can't think of anything more practical or easy to do/undo. I already have two starting batteries, a fuel supply from the main tanks, a day tank space, and a solar charger all within 6 ft. of my stern.
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Larry, I'm with you an auxiliary motor hanging on the swim platform does not seem practical to me. It might be functional, but not practical. I also don't have a lot of room unless I go into my engine room and start rearranging.
Hoping we would get someone that has actually gone through an installation of a wing engine and/or the PTO take-off.

Since diesel outboards don't grow on trees around here...

I wonder if the newer Lehr 15-hp (for example) propane outboards might be viable instead, at least for those who already might have boatloads of propane on board.

Permanently mounted? That'd probably drive me crazy. Mount-able in a pinch -- perhaps with a block from an onboard mast and boom if one exists -- might be bearable, although less convenient if the main engine's failure happens and the back-up must be put in place in an uncomfortable sea state.

Still, just throwing out an idea...

Perhaps it'd be easier, though, to just lash the dink into a stable and consistent pushing position, use it's outboard to get enough way on, steer from the big boat... or else tow.

-Chris
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:46 AM   #34
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I think for anything short of serious off-shore cruising, I wouldn't bother with a wing engine. Just get good tow insurance, stock up with lots of spares, and go for it.
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:08 AM   #35
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If one is a decent mechanic and is reasonably confident that, in time, one could fix what is needed to get underway again, one might be looking more for a "get control" option than a "get home" option. Neither would be cheap or very practical, and outside of the instantaneous response of an electric hookup with it's own props, if one is in a dangerous drift in a high-traffic river current, under a bridge, or maybe shooting a rocky inlet, there's probably no other option out there that one would be able to engage quickly enough to save the boat anyway, including dropping anchor. There's a difference between a controlled grounding, for example, and bouncing of some bridge pillars or coral reefs (and who knows what after that). I'll take the breakdown in the middle of the Gulf Stream anytime to a loss of control in an inlet. If I planned my weather well, at least out there, I can throw in a sea anchor and run down a list of what-to-do options....maybe even get help from another boat you're traveling with.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:50 PM   #36
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Interesting: Then the wingengine is a seperate power system to cruise on and help in docking etc. Great idea. How close to centerline is it mounted. Also, what about the drag of the prop??

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Old 08-12-2014, 04:19 PM   #37
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Interesting: Then the wingengine is a seperate power system to cruise on and help in docking etc. Great idea. How close to centerline is it mounted. Also, what about the drag of the prop??

Kingfish
Kingfish,
I don't know to whom you addressed these questions, but on Bay Pelican, a Krogen 42, the wing engine is off on the starboard side with its shaft perhaps three feet from the shaft of the main engine. (I am 4,000 miles away.) The Yanmar 27 hp was selected for several reasons including that its rotation was the opposite of the Lehman 135. Thus the Lehman backs to starboard and the Yanmar to port. A Max prop was selected on a one inch shaft so that the self pitching feature of the Max prop would reduce drag. The self-pitching feature works particularly well in reverse. Because of the off center Yanmar and the Max prop, Bay Pelican, using the Yanmar, backs to port much better than it backs to starboard using the Lehman.

An added feature of the Yanmar is that being a sailboat engine it accepts a large alternator so that it can be used to charge the batteries if the genset is down.
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:01 PM   #38
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Sunchaser, original pump. She is a 1997 Kadey Krogen. So the pump gave good service. In this case I just had the alternator rebuilt, and the mechanic tighted down the belts (2) REAL tight which made the pump bearings finally go out.
I am going through this excercise because we plan to go down the coast to Mexico next year so I need to decide to take a lot of parts or refit with a wing of some kind. Kadey Krogen dealer say that a ABT.TRAC will drive my boat up to 4 kts using the generator. That may seem like the way to go.
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Old 08-13-2014, 12:52 AM   #39
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Our wing is like Bay Pelican's - about 3 feet off center to starboard. The prop is a Gori folding prop for minimal drag. It will push the boat about 5 kts.
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Old 08-13-2014, 05:54 AM   #40
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I would consider installing an electric motor to match the generator and use this to drive the prop shaft. If I was building a new boat I would look closely at this ZF gearbox which is designed for a main diesel and a small supplementary electric motor. http://www.zf.com/media/media/docume...gy_2011-01.pdf
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