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Old 09-01-2014, 05:26 PM   #21
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Industrial engines or car engines, big difference

Industrial engines are rated and designed to run at their rated work load 24/7. They are capable of running at full rpm because that is usually very conservative. Most diesel engines run at less than 3300 rpm. One of the major factors in engine wear is the distance pistons travel per minute. Long stroke engines need to run at lower rpm to reduce piston and ring wear. Gas engines usually have shorter stroke engines and are capable of higher piston speeds. Marine engines based on car blocks that are run at 3500 rpm and up continuously, wear out much faster as a result. Car engines are not designed to run at full throttle for extended periods. If you pay attention to the tack in your car, your car engine runs at less than half speed most of the time.
Old engines suffer from metal fatigue, block distortion, valves stretch, broken valve springs , rod stretch, pistons wear and increased piston slap, rings break, or get gummed up. It's probably not smart to expect a old engine, no matter how well built to stand up to the abuse that a new engine is capable of. If you run your thirty year old engine at full speed you are pushing your luck. Thirty or forty year old designs may have some advantage in simplicity, but they are nowhere nearly as well machined or have the metallurgy used in modern engines. I'm old enough to have been buying and wearing out those old engines when they were new. I was thrashing my first Detroit in 1960, Car engines were worn out at less than 100K back then. Tune ups every 15k, oil changes every 1000, 1500 miles, tires every 15k , 20k if you were over 60. Today I would be horribly disappointed if my gas car engine didn't run 300k or more. I have very little nostalgia towards those old engines. If I had the money those old Detroit's in my boat would be modern JD's. Then I could hammer them wide open. I run my Detroit's at less than 1800 rpm, they are rated to 2800 rpm. They are 38 years old and still start every day and give another days labor. I almost never run them wide open, just occasionally to check them out, but seldom over 5 minutes. Still working after 38 years.
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Old 09-01-2014, 07:10 PM   #22
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By the way:
What engines from the light truck series now used liner? FL has liner in 5 !!! different sizes.
I am German and I dont know in Europe no one middle class engine with liner .... Why not?
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Old 09-01-2014, 07:28 PM   #23
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...diesels are not "throttled".
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Old 09-01-2014, 08:03 PM   #24
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The Ford diesels (our Lehmans) had a long and happy life as combine and generator engines, I think they even ended up in tractors, but Marin is correct, they sucked in trucks.

Check your "rating." My engine is rated "continuous" which means BTTW for 24 hours. My redline is 2100 rpm. My friend's Cummins, rated "recreational" is good for WOT for 1 hour, but he has almost double the HP and his engine redlines at 2800.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:00 PM   #25
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Scary that was an excellent post.

An old engine that's been over used for years and not taken care of or rebuilt when it's time can't be expected to haul the mail like it did when new. Taking care of anything that wears over time is "the cost of doing business". So even though I disagree w you to some degree I'm sure you're basically right. You obviously know more about it than me but I can't buy into needing to make big adjustments to how hard you run an older engine that's been maintained properly.

And some engines are just better than others .. Not thinking of the Lehman when I say that. I remember the Chrysler cars about 1950 had soft cylinders and so so rings. Cranks and inserts not very good either. Other brands of the time were clearly a notch up.

I think Marin's over the top but not really by much. I think he actually runs his engines almost 50% and that's way more than many here.

But thanks for the great post. We need clarity and objectivity here on engines.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:00 PM   #26
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...diesels are not "throttled".

Good point. And I believe most modern gas engines don't have the RPM limits set. Our boat Diesel engines have a govenor that limits the top RPM. And once the throttle is set the RPM speed is maintained, even under varying loads. Top RPM is called "high idle" by Cat.


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Old 09-01-2014, 10:07 PM   #27
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Supertramp,
From what I hear engines are made w a "throwaway" mentality. Not being judgemental or critical but in today's economy and circumstances manufacturers probably think "why build an engine that will be outdated and undesirable before it's worn out"? Or the cost of new engines is (relatively) cheap.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:12 PM   #28
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...

I think Marin's over the top but not really by much. I think he actually runs his engines almost 50% and that's way more than many here.
Run the Coot's JD4045 at 43% (1.7 gph vs. max. 4 gph) to move at a knot below hull speed at least 80% of the time.
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Old 09-01-2014, 11:23 PM   #29
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Supertramp,
From what I hear engines are made w a "throwaway" mentality. Not being judgemental or critical but in today's economy and circumstances manufacturers probably think "why build an engine that will be outdated and undesirable before it's worn out"? Or the cost of new engines is (relatively) cheap.
Eric you're right,
We currently live in a throwaway society.
I've been living 30 years in Venezuela and here defective equipment be repaired.
Ford offers in its catalog 5 sizes for overhaul on, I think it's great
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Old 09-01-2014, 11:53 PM   #30
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Thanks supertramp,
Wish it wasn't so.

Mark thanks for the numbers I'll use them to relate to my own for better scope.
My max fuel burn is more of an educated guess so my percentage of load is a bit vague too. With your help maybe I can focus it more. Perhaps Mitsubishi can provide me w Max fuel burn?

In the not too distant future I want to go into Lake Washington and run alongside the floating bridge where they have a measured mile marked off. I'd like to see what my real speed is w/o any tidal effects. That may come under the heading of winter cruising.
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Old 09-02-2014, 12:57 AM   #31
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not throttled means that power is controlled by fuel amount not air flow as in older gas engines.
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:24 AM   #32
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By the way:
What engines from the light truck series now used liner? FL has liner in 5 !!! different sizes.
I am German and I dont know in Europe no one middle class engine with liner .... Why not?
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I gather the question is why not use wet liners? It comes down to weight. Without liners, the cylinder itself is structural and helps hold the cylinder head to the main bearings, which are trying hard to separate themselves due to gas pressures. Wet liners require the block to be structurally stronger as then the liner is not structural.

Dry liners have problems with dimensional stability and poor heat transfer.

And in mid range engines, most engines serve a full life without needing repair to the bores, so not much advantage in replaceable liners.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:55 AM   #33
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Great thread.

I have often wondered if there was a real benefit in running my old Ford FL 120's wide open.

The times I have tried it all I got was lots of unburnt blue smoke from the exhausts, the engine wailing fit to bust and some very nasty fumes being drawn up onto the flybridge.

My very non mechanical decision was tht as the boat and engines were very happy at 1600-1700rpm, and had been so for 30 odd years, best to let them be. This is something my crew wholeheartedly endorses.

As for the argument that running the poor old things at WOT just in case one day you may need it, I don't think a Ford Lehman running at WOT could provide my 12 ton IG with any more power or speed than when running at 2200rpm, except to provide more blue smoke and noise.

As has been said by a few posters here the old FL120's had some inherent weaknesses, so to me it's just common sense not to push them too hard, for such a questionable return.
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Old 09-02-2014, 05:54 AM   #34
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I gather the question is why not use wet liners? It comes down to weight. Without liners, the cylinder itself is structural and helps hold the cylinder head to the main bearings, which are trying hard to separate themselves due to gas pressures. Wet liners require the block to be structurally stronger as then the liner is not structural.

Dry liners have problems with dimensional stability and poor heat transfer.

And in mid range engines, most engines serve a full life without needing repair to the bores, so not much advantage in replaceable liners.
Your comment is technically correct but an engine without liner is only three times overhoul possible.We have here in the Jungle and with Revolucion no new engines and must repair the old again . We have 12 middle Trucks.
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:26 AM   #35
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A liner allows the engine to be overhauled , left in place and parts changed out .

A kit will run $1000-$1500 and will include cylinder pistons , bearings and of course gaskets.

A rebuild is required for solid blocks , the engine removed and a boring machine redoes the cylinders , crank and cam bearing seats..

On a truck today a bigger diesel like a DD 50 or more common 60 will go 1,300,000 miles before the first overhaul is required.

This assumes OK maint and on time oil changes.
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Old 09-02-2014, 09:05 AM   #36
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[QUOTE=Forkliftt;263412]... once the throttle is set the RPM speed is maintained, even under varying loads. Top RPM is called "high idle" by Cat.

{QUOTE]

....power lever.
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Old 09-02-2014, 09:25 AM   #37
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Sorry. Er... Power lever😎✔️


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Old 09-02-2014, 09:53 AM   #38
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Andy G,
No one should be running their engines at WOT unless they are set up right and in good condition.

FF,
Sounds like Marin would do well w Detroit Diesels. Wouldn't need to worry about wearing them out and I know he'd run'em right and maintain them right. And he likes heavy stuff. He even likes an engine that roars. Well one that has lots of athorative noise. Said as much when I suggested he put two small engines in his boat. No little wimpy little engines for him. Yup DDs would be fine.

Ski,
Good on liners. I had them on my Willard (w Perkins) at first and they were showing signs of weeping. Poor heat transfer is not good there. I bailed and got a new dry liner engine.
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:06 AM   #39
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Andy G,
No one should be running their engines at WOT unless they are set up right and in good condition.
.
No one should be running their engines unless they are set up right and in good condition.

Maintaining and taking proper care is key, then understanding your specific engine and it's recommended operating range and time. The manufacturers know what they designed the engine to be able to do. Follow their guidelines.
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:18 AM   #40
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On a truck today a bigger diesel like a DD 50 or more common 60 will go 1,300,000 miles before the first overhaul is required.

This assumes OK maint and on time oil changes.

On your U.S. highways, but not in our country.
500,000 Km are a good result here
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