Why do folks over prop

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The othe irritating thing is turning on the anchor light at designated anchoring areas. We just spent 5 days at Reid Harbor and everybody had their anchor lights on. It was so bright that the harbor looked like a parking lot. Light pollution was so bad that we could not see the stars through the hatch in the stateroom. It never used to be like this 10 to 20 years ago. We are currently anchored in Montague and we are almost the only boat with the anchor light off. The other boaters think that having the anchor lights on is the cool salty thing to do?

In my local waters, the only designated special anchorage is Richardson Bay where anchor lights are not required. In designated general anchorages, the lights are required. That is in accordance with Colregs. It is not "the cool salty thing to do".
 
Maybe a picture will help....


This is from a Deere 4045 spec sheet, but is typical of all diesels driving props.


The red line shows the engine's max power capability at each RPM. This is the power the engine is capable of producing, but how much it actually produces depends on the load. Asking the engine to produce power anywhere above the red line creates an overload condition.


The gray line is the load required to spin a boat prop. It has a different shape than the engine output curve, starting out low, then progressively climbing as RPMs increase. Looking at it, you can see how much more power is required for relatively small increments in RPM (and speed) - something most of us know through experience.



The gray line represents a "correctly" matched prop. The key is that the prop load meets, but never exceeds the power output of the engine. Because of the difference in the shapes of the curves, the match between load and available power only occurs at max RPM.


When people look at over propping, they are looking at the space in the graph between the gray and red lines. That space represents power that the engine could produce without being overloaded, but the prop can't provide the load. Over propping relocates the prop load curve to tap more of the available power at lower rpms.


The orange crayon line draw by a child (me) shows an example of an over propped load. The load from the bigger prop grows faster as rpms increase, and utilizes more available engine power at lower rpms. You get the same power as the "correct" prop, but at lower RPMs so your engine is presumably quieter, and maybe operating at better fuel efficiency. That's what people are after when over propping.


But you can also see that now the orange line over-takes the engines max power curve shown in red. If you give the engine more throttle trying to push to higher rpms, you are now over loading the engine. That's the danger in over propping. If you are propped such that it's possible to overload like this, engine manufacturers will void your warranty. That only matters on a new engine with a warranty, but it also speaks to the hazards involved.


Proponents of over propping say to just not push past the overload point. If it hurts, don't do it. It has also been noted that exhaust gas temp (EGT) is an indication of when you are crossing over the red line, so instrumenting for that and keeping operation below max allowed EGT is a way to stay below the red line.



Hope this helps.

The problem with your graph example is that the manufacturer's propeller power curve is for a planing hull. If I propped my 4045 to turn rated RPM, at 1,500 RPM I would be generating 10 HP and my 7 knot cruise would be at 2,000 RPM ( my motor turns 2,600 RPM max). At 2,000 RPM, I would be generating 40 HP. Makes a lot more sense to over prop, cruise at 1,500 and generate 40 HP.

The other part about my situation is that my motor has a computer. The computer reduces RPM anytime the maximum HP is reached at a given RPM. Think you are allowed 5 minutes at 100% and 20 or 30 minutes above 80%. So in essence, the computer keeps you from overloading the engine except for a few minutes.

Ted
 
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I've ranted about this in another post but one thing that irritates the heck out of me is boaters that unnecessarily announce themselves through Dodd Narrows. New boaters hear others announcing themselves and think it's the cool nautical thing. The other boaters think that having the anchor lights on is the cool salty thing to do?

The obsession with cool might be in your own mind.

1. New boaters might follow the lead of others regarding announcing, but most likely it is an effort to do the right thing, rather than concern about being cool.

2. I’m not a new guy and I turn on my anchor light at Montague or anywhere else I drop anchor. I don’t even know what cool is, but I know I want to be seen on a dark night.

Sorry to interrupt your rant. Please carry on.
 
Syjos wrote;
“We are currently anchored in Montague and we are almost the only boat with the anchor light off. The other boaters think that having the anchor lights on is the cool salty thing to do?‘

Well I guess I’m a pretentious, cool, salty dude then w my anchor light on in Montague Harbour. It’s hard for me to imagine ‘light pollution” from anchor lights.
 
The problem with your graph example is that the manufacturer's propeller power curve is for a planing hull. If I propped my 4045 to turn rated RPM, at 1,500 RPM I would be generating 10 HP and my 7 knot cruise would be at 2,000 RPM ( my motor turns 2,600 RPM max). At 2,000 RPM, I would be generating 40 HP. Makes a lot more sense to over prop, cruise at 1,500 and generate 40 HP.

The other part about my situation is that my motor has a computer. The computer reduces RPM anytime the maximum HP is reached at a given RPM. Think you are allowed 5 minutes at 100% and 20 or 30 minutes above 80%. So in essence, the computer keeps you from overloading the engine except for a few minutes.

Ted


Lets keep it fair guys. You didn't state which M rating you were using M1-M5. That determines the continuous duty rating the engine can be run at WOT.
 
Light pollution is when anchorages are lit up like a parking lot.

Designated Special Anchorages are what I'm referring to.

Boats under 20 meters do not need to show lights or shapes.
 
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should the right prop be able to reach rated max RPM?
what is the OEM prop size for a 36 Grand Banks with twin 109 HP Lehman?
over-propping needs to be from a base set by the original builder?
 
Lets keep it fair guys. You didn't state which M rating you were using M1-M5. That determines the continuous duty rating the engine can be run at WOT.


Good point. I stayed away from that in my post, but it's another dimension on top of the basics.


And FWIW, that particular graph I posted happened to be the M1, or continuous duty rating.
 
Ok, for the sake of the discussion, I run an M3 rating. Would have preferred the M1, but just wasn't willing to pay $800 for the switch to be flipped in the computer.

Here is my engine performance curve:

20190713_081138.jpg

Ted
 
"should the right prop be able to reach rated max RPM?"

Yes if you tow water skiers or your boat cruises on top of the water.

Not required for a displacement boat that cruises at "hull speed" or the more common/frugal 1K less.
 
In my head "cool" is not the issue, it is more the "herd" mentality or the anchoring phenomena: you come into a nice safe large harbour, drop your anchor, and soon others are anchored around you, even though there is plenty of room else where. They aren't doing it to be cool but assume the first anchorer knows what they are doing and have a good location, which may or may not be true and some aren't secure in their ability to find good anchoring locations.

The same with folks who purchase an open cockpit boat in the Pacific NorthWest and BC south coast. We get billions of gallons of rain so why would you want to sit out in the open. Why? Because when you are new to boating you look around and here are all those sailboaters with an open cockpit and they know what they are doing - even though they went through the same process when they entered the boating world, look around and saw....

By the way, my first introduction to this open cockpit madness interestingly was in the Canadian Officer Fleet School program for the Navy. Our first "big ship" to train on was old WW 2 minesweepers that were 100 feet plus (memory fades here) but had open cockpits only. We did our training around Vancouver Island on these beat up old boats around Vancouver Island in February, us norther west coasters know what that means for weather. And I thought, back in 1974, why would anyone with any intelligence design an open cockpit only on a boat that plies coastal BC often in monsoon weather.

And now for a question. I have repowered my boat and during the coarse of my "studying up" on the issue, I discovered in the "old" days, a gas marine motor (I/O) was horse powered measured from the engine, so my old Merc was considered 270 hp. But newer motors are horse power measured at the prop. If my old engine had been measured for hp at the prop it would most likely have been approximately 240 hp, losing approximately 10 % of its rating to the mechanicals from the engine to the prop.

Is this true for older diesels versus current ones?
 
In my head "cool" is not the issue, it is more the "herd" mentality or the anchoring phenomena: you come into a nice safe large harbour, drop your anchor, and soon others are anchored around you, even though there is plenty of room else where. They aren't doing it to be cool but assume the first anchorer knows what they are doing and have a good location, which may or may not be true and some aren't secure in their ability to find good anchoring locations.

The same with folks who purchase an open cockpit boat in the Pacific NorthWest and BC south coast. We get billions of gallons of rain so why would you want to sit out in the open. Why? Because when you are new to boating you look around and here are all those sailboaters with an open cockpit and they know what they are doing - even though they went through the same process when they entered the boating world, look around and saw....

By the way, my first introduction to this open cockpit madness interestingly was in the Canadian Officer Fleet School program for the Navy. Our first "big ship" to train on was old WW 2 minesweepers that were 100 feet plus (memory fades here) but had open cockpits only. We did our training around Vancouver Island on these beat up old boats around Vancouver Island in February, us norther west coasters know what that means for weather. And I thought, back in 1974, why would anyone with any intelligence design an open cockpit only on a boat that plies coastal BC often in monsoon weather.

And now for a question. I have repowered my boat and during the coarse of my "studying up" on the issue, I discovered in the "old" days, a gas marine motor (I/O) was horse powered measured from the engine, so my old Merc was considered 270 hp. But newer motors are horse power measured at the prop. If my old engine had been measured for hp at the prop it would most likely have been approximately 240 hp, losing approximately 10 % of its rating to the mechanicals from the engine to the prop.

Is this true for older diesels versus current ones?
With the minesweepers I should have said "open bridge."
 
Is there a correlation of those who over prop but tend to small anchors?
 
Is there a correlation of those who over prop but tend to small anchors?
No, one size above Rochna's recommendation. I usually scope 7:1 with all chain and sleep well at night.

Ted
 
I have a history of using small anchors and don’t overprop.
 
Not sure what the correlation is between props and anchors - or is that some sort of phallic joke?

So if I understand some of the arguments in this thread:
1) There's nothing wrong with properly pitching your prop (obviously);
2) Slightly underpitching (which is recommended by manufacturers) will ensure being able to reach max power even in a headwind;
3) But as FF stated above, how many cruisers ever need to push 100% or how often do you really need to fight a big tidal current?
4) Over propping down at the level where you normally cruise (if you tend to keep to only one speed) will increase fuel efficiency, but then you won't be able to reach full speed.

So like everything else in boating, it's all about how YOU use your own boat in your own situation. Damn, I hate when there is no one clear answer :banghead:
 
OK i'm interested 109 posts and i have read every one . i need a little guidance. i am not trying to over prop necessarily . but i am concerned that i am under propped . on the survey my boat reached 8kt at 2700 rpm the max rated rpm is 2600 . ( i don't think i have had it over 2000) . i i cruse at 1600 to 1900 rpm and get 6 to 7 kt . the prop calculator shows my boat reaching over 10 kt with 135 hp. and only using 51 hp at 8 knots . i would love to be able to do 7.5 to 8 kt with decent fuel economy. ( i guessed at these numbers so i may have botched that) i am wandering if i have the prop refurbished how much pitch could i add and be safe . i am also worried i may have cylinder glazing from under-loading and high oil level . oil analysis are good . it burns around a quart per 30 hours (i think)
 
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Timb,
Underpropped 100rpm is perfect.
Overloading is impossible.
Let the engine sing a bit.
 
OK i'm interested 109 posts and i have read every one . i need a little guidance. i am not trying to over prop necessarily . but i am concerned that i am under propped . on the survey my boat reached 8kt at 2700 rpm the max rated rpm is 2600 . ( i don't think i have had it over 2000) . i i cruse at 1600 to 1900 rpm and get 6 to 7 kt . the prop calculator shows my boat reaching over 10 kt with 135 hp. and only using 51 hp at 8 knots . i would love to be able to do 7.5 to 8 kt with decent fuel economy. ( i guessed at these numbers so i may have botched that) i am wandering if i have the prop refurbished how much pitch could i add and be safe . i am also worried i may have cylinder glazing from under-loading and high oil level . oil analysis are good . it burns around a quart per 30 hours (i think)
The first thing I would do is verify your tachometer is accurate. I have an inexpensive hand held and just need a piece of reflective tape on a crankshaft pulley.

Ted
 
Not sure what the correlation is between props and anchors - or is that some sort of phallic joke?

So if I understand some of the arguments in this thread:
1) There's nothing wrong with properly pitching your prop (obviously);
2) Slightly underpitching (which is recommended by manufacturers) will ensure being able to reach max power even in a headwind;
3) But as FF stated above, how many cruisers ever need to push 100% or how often do you really need to fight a big tidal current?
4) Over propping down at the level where you normally cruise (if you tend to keep to only one speed) will increase fuel efficiency, but then you won't be able to reach full speed.

So like everything else in boating, it's all about how YOU use your own boat in your own situation. Damn, I hate when there is no one clear answer :banghead:

Number 4 assumes a planing hull which many of us don't have. My boat needs 40 HP to cruise 7 knots. 64 HP to cruise 8 knots. About 250 HP to reach 9 knots. With my 135 HP engine, 8.6 knots is my limit around 120 HP. So, it's 8 knots or less. Final question is what RPM do you want to generate 40 HP at, 1,500 or 2,000. Much easier to hear your answer at 1,500.

Ted
 
Ted I think #4 applies equally to displacement speeds also. For example, Robert Beebe states that he propped Passagemaker for 7.5 knots, for maximum efficiency, but was unable to reach max speed because of it. A trade off.
 
Ted I think #4 applies equally to displacement speeds also. For example, Robert Beebe states that he propped Passagemaker for 7.5 knots, for maximum efficiency, but was unable to reach max speed because of it. A trade off.
Probably not.
I can't speak to Beebe's boat. My boat came with a 450 HP engine. Did a speed, RPM, HP, fuel burn table before swapping engines. 9 knots is 250 +/- HP. If you're going to tell me that not propping it correctly won't let me get one or two more Tenths of a knot, so be it. I have no need for 9 or 8 knots. To go from 3.5 MPG at 7 knots to <1 MPG at 9 knots makes no sense to me.

Ted
 
Ted I don’t think Mako was talking bout 9 knots and your previous 450hp.

And one can assume Beebe was talking about a boat w enough power to go 7.5 knots plus 5 or 10% for extra power in headwinds headseas ect. And re Mako’s quote what was he talking about ... “max speed”? All boats have a max speed and all are above cruising speed. Unless someone goes flat out all the time.
Another thing about Mako’s post is that 7.5 knots was probably not the max range (efficiency) speed. It would have to be lower I’m thinking. Headwinds or tidal current would also vary max efficiency speed.

Getting a smaller engine or going slower or both will almost always increase efficiency.

Andre Mako’s #4 if one is overpropped one is overpropped at all rpms. Just not overloaded unless over whatever rpm overloading starts.
And now I’m thinking “full speed” is/was what it would be if propped correctly ... at rated rpm.
 
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We have a displacement hull that is propped to cruise at 8 knots. We set the throttle to cruise speed and do'nt fiddle with it underway. When we encounter headwinds and opposing current, we do'nt apply more power, we leave the throttle alone and let the boat slow.

We avoid opposing current of 4 knots or more by planning the transit time but occasionally have seen 3 knots on the GPS.
 
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