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Old 06-12-2014, 09:49 PM   #121
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My comments on power is to look at it as a system, meaning pick a type and number of batteries that will provide you with enough reserve that you are comfortable with. Then pick alternative charging sources and see what they can replenish size properly from there as needed. If you have a generator how long will you have to run it to recharge your batteries with the smart charger or inverter/ charger you picked. Finally look at your engines alternators and use ACR's to supplement them charging the starting bank and then the house bank. These are all separate systems but they need to be all integrated. If you are lucky enough to have a generator that puts out 50 or more DC amps use an ACR to supplement the house bank. Judicious use of over sized DC cables never hurt after all power lost in the cables is a constant and you can't recover from their losses. I don't believe in the 10% loss for many devices I prefer to keep my losses at as low as possible even 3% is too much loss in my book.
Finally look at devices you can run on DC instead of AC and look to change out those amp grabbing lights replace them with LED's.
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There is a another very important component to the equation. Your desired boating lifestyle (including finances). Then you have to match the systems to it, best as you can.
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:58 PM   #122
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There is a another very important component to the equation. Your desired boating lifestyle (including finances). Then you have to match the systems to it, best as you can.

Thats right!

There is no need to save power if you do not want to.

Saving power becomes expensive quickly, as does generating power. Its up to each of us to decide on our own boats how we want to operate them.

I'm all for running my generator! I like generators, and I like to live on my boat just like it was my home.

Oh, and I like burning fossil fuels, the more the better, so run those generators!
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:08 PM   #123
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Me too!!

I love the smell of diesel in the morning. . . . . It smells like. . . Victory!!
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:13 PM   #124
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Me too!!

I love the smell of diesel in the morning. . . . . It smells like. . . Victory!!
It smells like money!



Full disclaimer, that is a photo I found on the net.

If you'd like I can take a couple of photos tomorrow of the Prudhoe Bay oil field.
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:40 PM   #125
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Well….all of that went well. I agree with all of you in a way.
I'm 12v DC only on the pick, and don't have TV, (mainly wife's choice - I would sometimes like to see the news and watch the cricket or football, whatever), but some good books in the iPad does nearly as well. We cook with gas(propane), and have LED'd as many lights as makes sense, with an efficient 12v DC Waeco powered frig.

However, if I had a largish, more modern boat, which came with AC powered appliances, including cooker, and a good generator, then sure, for simplicity, like Moonshine, sorry Moonstruck…I also would use that, and keep it simple, rather than mix different types of energy production. Ie all diesel is good, if that's how the boat is set up. I just happen to not have that, so go with engine & propane (we call it gas) for hot water/cooking, and wind, engine and solar generation/charging to stay all 12v.
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:09 AM   #126
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ksanders wrote;

"and I like to live on my boat just like it was my home"

That one's been on this thread several times. Dosn't make sense. Why would anyone seek the boating experience if they want it to be "just like home". People want to go camping so they can look at the stars instead of the mirror over their bed. People want to go camping so they can cook on an open fire. There's the "get away from it all" element too. To get away from extra noise and frivolous extra convenience.

Looks to me like stars and open fire cooking aren't on most peoples minds. There are a few of us that lean toward a camping style experience. But it looks like most are in a frame of mind that considers life afloat to be a highly competitive effort to amass as much of the comforts of home into the boating experience as possible. And of course most of us are in-between.

My judgmental comment that psneeld keeps referring to is/was a bit judgmental. The more one succeeds in amassing a lot of the comforts of home on their boat the more one isolates themselves from the experience of boating. As a car enthusiast you could hire someone to take you for a ride in your favorite car ... Maserati Bently or whatever. Or you could watch them drive by. Or you could read a magazine. If you were to go camping you could get out your tent or drive away in your motor home worth more than most of our trawlers. You could row a boat to Alaska and experience lots of the boating sensations. Rain in the face, blisters on your hands and lots of other intense boating experiences. On the way you could look out at a trawler yacht going by and say something judgmental about how the yachtsman was having a far less meaningful experience. You might be inclined to say something judgmental about the yachtsman as having a shallow, less meaningful experience that only takes money to do. You may be right depending on the yachtsman. Or the yachtsman may be halving a deeper and more meaningful experience as skipper and owner of his vessel traveling through the wilderness. Making extensive calculations and decisions requiring keen attention to detail and complex mechanical equipment or one could be an idiot, make wrong decisions and run your boat right up on to Tree Point foundering on the rocks.

So my judgmental comment may apply and it may not. Here on TF there no doubt are few that would not have a very meaningful experience cruising and eventually would founder in some way. But most will have very meaningful experiences no matter how much comfort and conveniences they have aboard. In navigation alone one can go to great heights even falling short of predicted log racing and the mechanical and anchoring challenges can't be avoided either.

I like it fairly simple but I like a challenge. Money always affects our style and way of doing things but the guy rowing to Alaska or running a big trawler to Alaska both have the opportunity to extend themselves as far as they wish to enjoy and meet challenges to whatever level he wishes.

So I should say a trawler skipper w a generator isn't a lesser skipper because of it. Unless he fires it up and makes noise.

Just kidd'in
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:39 AM   #127
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...
Oh, and I like burning fossil fuels, the more the better, so run those generators!
Fill'er up:

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Old 06-13-2014, 12:42 AM   #128
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ksanders wrote;

"and I like to live on my boat just like it was my home"

That one's been on this thread several times. Dosn't make sense. Why would anyone seek the boating experience if they want it to be "just like home".

Doesn't make sense to you. By "Just like home" he's referring to the conveniences of home. One can enjoy the water, the scenery, the outdoors ambiance, but still have all the conveniences inside.

People want to go camping so they can look at the stars instead of the mirror over their bed. People want to go camping so they can cook on an open fire. There's the "get away from it all" element too. To get away from extra noise and frivolous extra convenience. We don't go camping. For us boating isn't to mirror camping. Depends on what you're trying to get away from. On the water there's less noise but we seldom choose to sleep outdoors, only occasionally on the bridge. We don't like to sleep with bugs, cold, hot or rain. We enjoy the outdoors during the day but like to sleep in climate control. Quiet is relevant and we have general quiet aboard. Calling extra convenience's "frivolous" is unfortunate as just because you might consider something frivolous to you that doesn't mean it is. It might be important to another. Frivolous is a rather harsh, judgmental type word.

Looks to me like stars and open fire cooking aren't on most peoples minds. We can look at stars and cook on an outdoor grill and still retire to comfort. There are a few of us that lean toward a camping style experience. But it looks like most are in a frame of mind that considers life afloat to be a highly competitive effort Competitive effort? Are you saying because someone chooses to do it differently than you, that it's not just a personal preference, but instead they're trying to compete. What if we said those of you going camping style were in a highly competitive effort to see who was going with the fewest conveniences?to amass as much of the comforts of home into the boating experience as possible. And of course most of us are in-between.

My judgmental comment that psneeld keeps referring to is/was a bit judgmental. The more one succeeds in amassing a lot of the comforts of home on their boat the more one isolates themselves from the experience of boating. Again an opinion I don't share. The more they aren't camping perhaps but they may fully be immersed in boating. You don't get to define what boating is. As a car enthusiast you could hire someone to take you for a ride in your favorite car ... Maserati Bently or whatever. Or you could watch them drive by. Or you could read a magazine. Completely irrelevant and not a sensible comparison.If you were to go camping you could get out your tent or drive away in your motor home worth more than most of our trawlers. You could row a boat to Alaska and experience lots of the boating sensations. Rain in the face, blisters on your hands and lots of other intense boating experiences. On the way you could look out at a trawler yacht going by and say something judgmental about how the yachtsman was having a far less meaningful experience. You might be inclined to say something judgmental about the yachtsman as having a shallow, less meaningful experience that only takes money to do. You may be right depending on the yachtsman. Or the yachtsman may be halving a deeper and more meaningful experience as skipper and owner of his vessel traveling through the wilderness. Making extensive calculations and decisions requiring keen attention to detail and complex mechanical equipment or one could be an idiot, make wrong decisions and run your boat right up on to Tree Point foundering on the rocks. I like that section. Each person finds fulfillment differently. We enjoy watching the sea life, riding over the water. Now we do more cruising actually away from land than most, but we don't consider coastal cruising less natural or meaningful.

So my judgmental comment may apply and it may not. Here on TF there no doubt are few that would not have a very meaningful experience cruising and eventually would founder in some way. But most will have very meaningful experiences no matter how much comfort and conveniences they have aboard. In navigation alone one can go to great heights even falling short of predicted log racing and the mechanical and anchoring challenges can't be avoided either.

I like it fairly simple but I like a challenge. Money always affects our style and way of doing things but the guy rowing to Alaska or running a big trawler to Alaska both have the opportunity to extend themselves as far as they wish to enjoy and meet challenges to whatever level he wishes. That is true that money may influence how we do things or may not. Certainly when we were younger with less money we enjoyed a very different style of boating. No more or less. Just different.

So I should say a trawler skipper w a generator isn't a lesser skipper because of it. Unless he fires it up and makes noise.

Just kidd'in
Well, tonight we're in an anchorage alone. One generator running primarily to maintain refrigerator and freezers. Very little sound. See we do like as quiet a generator as possible. A little air conditioning perhaps.

So many different ways to enjoy the water. We don't understand the attraction of cruise ships, but they bring pleasure to many. And if we had to rough it in a sailboat with no conveniences we'd probably prefer to just day sail close to home. Yet, it's all a love of the water.
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:57 AM   #129
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Cruise ship (inexpensive):



Trawler (expensive):



I enjoy both experiences.
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:15 AM   #130
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Kinda tough for me to justify saving the last watt when getting less than 2 mpg by choice.

Our genset powers a George Forman grill for convenience as we are all electric. This fun we call boating can be had so many different ways. Great gizmo and puttering choices abound from what I have seen on this thread. Boating is called messing around for a reason. Now about the relevance of the NFL for those in Australia.
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:30 AM   #131
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Addressing Eric's comments, but without regurging it all, I think the essence of it is the just being out there on the water and accessing places & seeing things one could not otherwise go to or see. Then there is the attending to the necessary daily needs, like feeding, washing, sleeping and ellininating. You can enjoy roughing it for a while, but in the end, if attending to those basic needs becaomes an almighty chore and inconvenience, then you in the end, stop doing it. We had tents once, but one gets sick of all the packing and unpacking and dealing with rain and cold and so on, so in the end a camper trailer becomes preferred. Trawlers are your sea/lake-going equivalent. However, you still have to do a lot for yourself, but that also gives freedome of choice of where and when. Taking an ocean cruise is the ultimate example of "being out there" but not only all with all creaturec omforts, but waited on hand and foot as well - that's kinda nice too.
Horses for courses gentleman& ladies...
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:31 AM   #132
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Thats right!

There is no need to save power if you do not want to.

Saving power becomes expensive quickly, as does generating power. Its up to each of us to decide on our own boats how we want to operate them.

I'm all for running my generator! I like generators, and I like to live on my boat just like it was my home.

Oh, and I like burning fossil fuels, the more the better, so run those generators!
....would you like to stomp your foot too?
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:35 AM   #133
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....would you like to stomp your foot too?
you bet!

Earth First...

We'll drill the other planets later!
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:59 AM   #134
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Slight correction. While we have never "camped out", we have slept on the beach a few years ago behind a Myrtle Beach hotel.
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:51 AM   #135
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What does any off this have to do with power systems on a boat?
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:00 AM   #136
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What do you do about Power?

Power to the gennys!!!!
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:12 AM   #137
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There are many ways to electrically power a boat.

You have to be honest with yourself as to how you are going to use the boat, where you are going to be climatically to use solar/wind....and what you can and can't live with. My last boat travelled to/from Florida for many years yet no genset or house batteries....just 2 -8Ds for the Cat 3208s. The wife refused to anchor out... They were happy but it wasn't ideal for me who anchored out a lot. So in went extra batts and an inverter and portable genset.

Then again...like many boaters I know...you can spend 10's of thousands on all kinds of equipment, dreaming of the islands and yet never get much further than their own sea buoy.

Me... I semi-retired early, left most of my money in my investments and take off every winter for Fl....eventually the keys and near islands. So I only spend my money where it gives me bang for the buck....or trons as the case may be.

I see me trending towards more self sufficiency electrically...not because of quiet in the anchorage (as I explained...most of the anchorages I use aren't devoid of manmade noise anyhow)..but as BandB said...marinas are starting to gouge their electric charges for transients.
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:14 AM   #138
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If you watch TV on your boat, at least get a flat screen TV, dump the CRT. A TV that runs on 12 volts DC will save the extra power required to run an inverter.

We should all be running LED lighting by now.
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:16 AM   #139
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Finally look at your engines alternators and use ACR's to supplement them charging the starting bank and then the house bank. These are all separate systems but they need to be all integrated...
Why do the engines aternators/systems have to be integrated? Why not keep the systems independent with 2 alternators 2 voltage regulators, one for the house bank and one for the engine, gauges and starting circuit. The only way you can integrate them, is manually, with a set of cables, no switches. For us, we're usually moving for at least several hours at a time and when we do move, we top off all the batteries or get close enough. When we're on the hook, the generator charges the house bank. The engine batteries are resting. With a 2-5%/month discharge rate, they can sit there till we're ready to move. We like to keep the systems simple.
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:23 AM   #140
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It's a personal choice nothing more or less. This is what has worked for me over the years in my Mainship 40SB. I use BlueSea high current ACR's to recharge the house bank off one of my engines once the starting bank is fully charged usually within minutes and the other engine recharged my bow thruster bank after the engines starting battery was charged again usually within minutes. One can leave the starting batteries or battery and engine alternators alone it's their choice.
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