Well, this is unfortunate...

[koliver]

Dave:
Wow! What a day. Sorry I waited till now to read about it, not that I could have helped. By this time, my wife would have plane reservations made for an alternate holiday. I hope yours is like you and not at all rattled by the turn of events. I also hope the solution lies in removing and re-fitting the injector lines.
By this time I would have the valve covers off and run the engine a little to see if there was any visible spray, but you are probably wise to wait for the mechanic, who will likely start with something to check for an obvious leak.
Best of luck with the repair.
We were out boating in "Non Wifi" zones, my excuse for being so late to this thread. Hope to see you successfully motoring past within a couple of weeks. Let me ( and other Dave-watchers) know when the journey begins.

 

[dhays]

By this time I would have the valve covers off and run the engine a little to see if there was any visible spray, but you are probably wise to wait for the mechanic, who will likely start with something to check for an obvious leak.
Best of luck with the repair.

I'm not that tempted since my understanding of diesel engines only extends as far using the green handle to refuel.

 

[JustBob]

At least my wife made me a sandwich.

Well, anyway, what kind of sandwich was it?

 

[psneeld]

I'm not that tempted since my understanding of diesel engines only extends as far using the green handle to refuel.

Be careful if you come east, no all marinas are diligent about handle color or putting it in the tank versus a rod holder....

One thing for everyone, but not necessarily for everytime you have an issue where shutting down versus keep going for single engine guys.....

If not completely out of harms way as far as drifting or anchor not setting goes, a very good marine engineer passed along that idling with only 10 psi oil pressure might have been better than risking grounding or worse. Now we werent there, and concern about a lot of fuel in the crankcase may swaythe option too.

I had a dampner plate come apart in a small busy creek only a few hundred yards short a good anchorage. If the smoke alarm in the engine room hadnt gone off, I may have continued despite the racket coming from the engine. Tough decision in retrospect, one symtom over shadowed the other. Wound up driving the boat another 600 miles before the broken spring ultimately jammed the flywheel....but was nice that I made it back to Jersey and home dock.
So continuing to a safe anchorage could have easily been done.

As we all get experience the hard or easy way, making those tough decisions can pop up at any time and drawing from similar, previous experiences is interesting. Finding out the bottom line here will also be interesting...... to see how it could have affected the decision to not restart or restart and power to deeper water once it git tight.

I can empathize with that tough decision.

 

[Bruce B]

Be careful if you come east, no all marinas are diligent about handle color or putting it in the tank versus a rod holder....

One thing for everyone, but not necessarily for everytime you have an issue where shutting down versus keep going for single engine guys.....

If nor completely out of harms way as far as drifting or anchor not setting goes, a very good marine engineer passec along that idling with only 10 psi oil pressure might have been better than risking grounding or worse. Now we werent there, and concern about a lot of fuel in the crankcase may swaythe option too.

I had a dampner plate come apart in a small busy creek only a few hundred yards short a good anchorage. If the smoke alarm in the engine room hadnt gone off, I may have continued despite the racket coming from the engine. Tough decision in retrospect, one symtom over shadowed the other. Wound up driving the boat another 600 miles before the broken spring ultimately jammed the flywheel....but was nice that I made it back to Jersey and home dock.
So continuing to a safe anchorage could have easily been done.

As we all get experience the hard or easy way, making those tough decisions can pop up at any time and drawing from similar, previous experiences is interesting. Finding out the bottom line here will also be interesting...... to see how it could have affected the decision to not restart or restart and power to deeper water once it git tight.

I can empathize with that tough decision.

There is a lot to think about in this post, Paul offers good advice.
I too would caution about blindly picking up the green fuel nozzle. While recently driving 13,000 miles around the country in a diesel pickup, I'd estimate that at least 10% of the time the "green is diesel" standard is ignored. We have seen it in marinas too...
Be careful what hose you pick up!
Bruce

 

[Art]

There is a lot to think about in this post, Paul offers good advice.
I too would caution about blindly picking up the green fuel nozzle. While recently driving 13,000 miles around the country in a diesel pickup, I'd estimate that at least 10% of the time the "green is diesel" standard is ignored. We have seen it in marinas too...
Be careful what hose you pick up!
Bruce

Including "green" color... For severely color blind persons... Should have words Gas or Diesel boldly stamped or taped or embedded onto noticeable portion of nozzle.

In most regards... Our son-in-law is black and white color blind... much is grey.

 

[dhays]

One thing for everyone, but not necessarily for everytime you have an issue where shutting down versus keep going for single engine guys.....

If not completely out of harms way as far as drifting or anchor not setting goes, a very good marine engineer passed along that idling with only 10 psi oil pressure might have been better than risking grounding or worse. Now we werent there, and concern about a lot of fuel in the crankcase may swaythe option too.

Good point. Initially, I had pointed myself out towards the middle of the channel to get away from shore. I considered heading back to the harbor but with a strong ebb current I wasn't going to be able to get through the Harbor entrance anyway at idle.

My hope was that being in the back eddy, I would simply go around in a circle waiting for the tow. That would have worked but then the wind picked up out of the North and started pushing me towards the point that causes the eddy.

I was just about at the point where I was going to fire up the engine and move further away from shore to reset the anchor, but about that time was able to spot the two boat coming my way.

 

[Art]

Good point. Initially, I had pointed myself out towards the middle of the channel to get away from shore. I considered heading back to the harbor but with a strong ebb current I wasn't going to be able to get through the Harbor entrance anyway at idle.

My hope was that being in the back eddy, I would simply go around in a circle waiting for the tow. That would have worked but then the wind picked up out of the North and started pushing me towards the point that causes the eddy.

I was just about at the point where I was going to fire up the engine and move further away from shore to reset the anchor, but about that time was able to spot the two boat coming my way.

With situations such as they were and a myriad of what ifs immediately thrust on your plate... I feel you did just fine!

Recalling and in comparison to the "balancing boat" avatar photo you used... Your Boat Loves You!

 

[twistedtree]

There is another concern with continuing to run with fuel getting in the oil that goes beyond low oil pressure and lubrication.

If the oil/fuel level gets too high the engine can start to ingest the oil/fuel mixture resulting in a run away engine. That would have likely cost you the engine, so you successfully dodged that bullet by shutting down.

 

[psneeld]

That is the big gamble..... with operating a single engine boat and hoping failures are only at good moments or you have to be extraordinarily careful where you put your boat all the time.

Fortunately real emergencies for single engines are few and far between.

 

[AusCan]

Well done so far, Dave.

It should be fairly straight forward from here. Diesel in the crankcase can only come from a couple different sources. Your mechanic should have it sorted out without too much problem.

A much better find than coolant in the crankcase.

 

[Ski in NC]

Dave- I understand you are not a gear head, so I want to give this advice: Diesel in fuel likely came from some sort of error in fiddling with the injectors. Sounds like the shop will come down and sort that with no fuss. The concern remains whether there was damage to bearings etc due to the dilution. They will fix the leak and change the oil and start the engine and listen to it. Engine may sound fine in that check. But there still could be damage, and that damage may not show itself until many hours under load are logged.

You need to protect yourself by keeping good documentation as to what occurred and what fixes were made. Explain to them that you are concerned about bearing damage.
See how they react. If bearings go in six months, these guys are still on the hook. How to handle that should it occur is a little out of my league. But understand that such damage is a possibility.

It could be engine is just fine after the fix, but do protect yourself should it be not. If nothing goes wrong in a year of service, you should be in the clear.

 

[MichaelB1969]

I had some more engine work done on Friday. The mechanics was happy that he had solved all my problems. We went out today to take advantage of the nice weather.

The engine started just fine, the old pressure came up and we motored out of our harbor. We are deep in the harbor and it is a no wake zoom so it takes a good 15-20 minutes to get out. Things were fine and I throttled up to about 1800 rpm and we were cruising along nicely for about 10 minutes. Then the oil pressure alarm went off.

I throttled back and got pointed away from the shore (was hugging the shore to get a back eddy) and then **** it down. Everything looked fine in the ER but a check of the dipstick showed what looks to me like a lot of fuel in the oil.

Tried to start it up again and the oil pressure only came to 10psi. I for a few minutes at idle in gear to get me into some deeper water and then **** it down again.

Called BoatUS for a tow but they are busy on this hot and sunny day. They should be here in about 1.5 hours. I am drifting South currently in a back eddy in 70 ( make that 50 and shallowing quickly) feet of water. If the current doesn't kick me back towards the main channel I will have to drop the anchor.

At least my wife made me a sandwich.

Goodness Dave, sorry to hear. I'd agree with the others on your ability to stay calm. I certainly would be way too stressed to be posting photos on TF, that's for sure! Regardless of whether you could have done this or that different, you did pretty well on the whole! Hope you get your engine issues sorted out quickly!

Mike

 

[dhays]

Dave- I understand you are not a gear head, so I want to give this advice: Diesel in fuel likely came from some sort of error in fiddling with the injectors. Sounds like the shop will come down and sort that with no fuss. The concern remains whether there was damage to bearings etc due to the dilution. They will fix the leak and change the oil and start the engine and listen to it. Engine may sound fine in that check. But there still could be damage, and that damage may not show itself until many hours under load are logged.

You need to protect yourself by keeping good documentation as to what occurred and what fixes were made. Explain to them that you are concerned about bearing damage.
See how they react. If bearings go in six months, these guys are still on the hook. How to handle that should it occur is a little out of my league. But understand that such damage is a possibility.

It could be engine is just fine after the fix, but do protect yourself should it be not. If nothing goes wrong in a year of service, you should be in the clear.

Thanks Ski,

I will talk to the mechanic tomorrow when he is on the boat and then talk to the marine service manager at the shop as well.

Are there any types of checks that could be done now and then follow-ups done in another 100 hours to see if this may be the case?

 

[mbevins]

You might want to consider putting your insurance company on notice of the situation. I had a similar situation two years ago. The mechanic that installed my new high output Balmar alternator decided to remove one of my crankcase breathers as it was in the way. The crankcase over pressured and drove all the oil out of the engine while I was running. The yard played dumb at the beginning. Turns out last winter I had to rebuild the engine. The insurance covered it and subrogated back to the yards insurance. Yes it was covered due to third party damage. The bill was about $25K all in. I'm not saying your yard won't look after you but faced with a rebuild cost they might just backpeddle a bit, especially a year or two from now.

 

[SoWhat]

If bearings are rated for 10,000 hours, you may have used up 2500 hours in 4 or 5 hours of running with diluted oil. Mains and rod bearings are the critical ones. Wear might have polished the cylinder walls a little more (they should have a honed finish).
There is no way to tell how much wear resulted.

Is is a good idea to keep contemporaneous notes regarding the events. eg, a ships log. Record everything you can think of. Record every thing mechanic tells you. Print out this thread. Notes may come in handy if your engine needs a rebuild in 500 hours and yard refuses to ante up. They're admissible in a civil trial.

 

[dhays]

Well, the mechanic just left. This time I got the senior marine guy. He started out by telling me that he doesn't plan on making any attempt to fix the boat today, instead he wants to take an oil sample, take photos, and try to figure out the extent of any damage. Disappointing, but definitely the right move.

He wasn't able to get his borescope into the cylinders (just a bit too big as he suspected it would be). After looking at the top of the pistons, the injectors, and everything else he could his recommendation is to replace the engine. He said that they could very likely replaced the head and get it running but he doesn't think it would run as well as it had before all this started and that likely its lifespan is now significantly shortened.

He doesn't make the final decision. He has already talked to the marine service manager who concurs, now the marine service manager has to get approval from the top and then find an engine. It is there hope and plan to be able to get it all done by the time my vacation comes around in August. The biggest wrinkle will be finding a yard that can pull the engine during this busy season.

I expect to here back from the service manager Monday for a plan, then start trying to find a yard. As it turns out, my sailboat is scheduled for a haul out and some work in a couple weeks. If need be I can see if the yard can swap boats.

I am more than a little disappointed, however I can't complain at all so far about the attitude of Cummins Northwest. They are working hard to resolve the problem as thoroughly as they can. I'd rather have it done right than done quickly.

 

[Larry M]

Dave: What a bummer. Replace the engine? Is this under warrenty?

 

[dhays]

Dave: What a bummer. Replace the engine? Is this under warrenty?

While they aren't saying a lot, the implication is that it was their fault and therefore their responsibility to fix it. The mechanic specifically said that it wasn't his place to denigrate his fellow mechanics that worked on the boat, but that he just wants to make sure that I am made right.

Bottom line, I'm not paying anything.

 

[cardude01]

Good grief. Boat mechanics scare me even more now.

Sorry for the troubles...

 

[twistedtree]

Wow.

Good they are standing behind their work. Hopefully hat will continue as it becomes clear how much this is going to cost them. I'll bet the other mechanic is looking for a job.

I would check carefully on the heritage of any replacement engine. How many hours on the existing engine? Perhaps even push for a factory reman?

And at some point it's probably worth capturing in writing that this is all in them. I have usually done that in simple email exchanges which gives an excellent written record. It's also a good way to document everything as it transpires, and is less hostile that asking for a separate written statement. As soon as anyone senses people lawyering up, things will likely come to a grinding halt.

Good luck with it all, and I think your constructive attitude will serve you well through this.

 

[psneeld]

I can't tell....either I am super inpressed he can tell all that from a partial boroscope inspection....or he just is doomsday scenario guessing....and moving on....at least to you benefit.

For an engine that just started to dilute the oil, probably far from WOT during the short occurance and it still had 10 psi oil pressure....I am amazed at the possible damage outlined.

He is the mechanic, but.....usually takes more teardown to pronunce the engine all but dead.

Anyone want a stab at why the jnjectors would be damaged?....or he could see damage in the combustion chamber other than scuffing from less lubricity? That has me scratching my head.

 

[twistedtree]

I can't tell....either I am super inpressed he can tell all that from a partial boroscope inspection....or he just is doomsday scenario guessing....and moving on....at least to you benefit.

For an engine that just started to dilute the oil, probably far from WOT during the short occurance and it still had 10 psi oil pressure....I am amazed at the possible damage outlined.

He is the mechanic, but.....usually takes more teardown to pronunce the engine all but dead.

Anyone want a stab at why the jnjectors would be damaged?....or he could see damage in the combustion chamber other than scuffing from less lubricity? That has me scratching my head.

I agree with you that he is rendering more of a guess than a determination with certainty. And I didn't hear if he identified the source of the fuel contamination? But either way it's pretty hard to see blame falling anywhere other than cummins since they are behind both the service and the parts.

Perhaps they have learned that it's better to just deal with problems like this rather than create an angry customer for life, and a boat where they get called back for everything that goes wrong with blame placed on the original issue.

And internally, the service manager can blame it on the mechanic whom has likely been fired, and let the whole event fade into the corporate cloud as an unfortunate accident.

 

[mbevins]

In many respects you're lucky that you are dealing with a Corp. and not a locally owned marina. The marina looks at his profit for X period going out the door while the Corp guy is just dealing with a screw up and a customer. He has no personal dollars on the line.

As I said earlier when I had my issues the owner of the marina didn't think I would push it and just walk away. Right about now his insurance company is asking him the hard questions I'm sure. Unless of course he just bit the bullet and repaid my insurance company. Which I somehow doubt.

Keep your fingers crossed, it sounds like it'll work in your favor.

 

[Bruce B]

I used to carry insurance for incidents such as these for my business. Only had to invoke it once in the years I carried it. We had a timing belt tensioner stud fail after a replacement timing belt. That repair was in the order of $15,000.
I'd be surprised if Cummins NW doesn't carry similar insurance.
Bruce

 

[78puget-trawler]

It sounds like CNW is going to do right by you. Lets hope so.

 

[Art]

Dave

Don't like this happening to you.

Sure hope that it all turns out OK in the long run.

Best Luck - my friend!

Art

 

[McGillicuddy]

I can't tell....either I am super inpressed he can tell all that from a partial boroscope inspection....or he just is doomsday scenario guessing....and moving on....at least to you benefit.

For an engine that just started to dilute the oil, probably far from WOT during the short occurance and it still had 10 psi oil pressure....I am amazed at the possible damage outlined.

He is the mechanic, but.....usually takes more teardown to pronunce the engine all but dead.

Anyone want a stab at why the jnjectors would be damaged?....or he could see damage in the combustion chamber other than scuffing from less lubricity? That has me scratching my head.

I am thinking the dealer has a swing out rebuild in stock. Swing in the rebuild and get rid of a recurring (possible) headache. Then he takes in the damaged engine and no matter what the original issue, he rebuilds and places it back in his swing out stock.

 

[psneeld]

I am thinking the dealer has a swing out rebuild in stock. Swing in the rebuild and get rid of a recurring (possible) headache. Then he takes in the damaged engine and no matter what the original issue, he rebuilds and places it back in his swing out stock.

Quite possible....looking for the quickest solution

Based on expert input on the limited info here, not likely much if any damage was done, but an engine swap might beat a progressive teardown.

 

[BandB]

I think easier to drop another in and then rebuild this one and be able to warranty both. If he just came in and took a shortcut in repairing this one, then there would be suspicion that any future problem was a result of all this. To break this one down completely in the boat would take time and might or might not uncover issues.

Smart manufacturers have their own internal lemon law. I knew an outboard motor dealer years ago sold a bass boat and it ran beautifully for about an hour and a half, then about 25% throttle was it's max. It was brought in and every electronic component on the motor checked bad, so all replaced. All checked. Sent back out and same thing happened. Changed all the components again and this time didn't turn it over to the owner but went out and ran it an hour and a half themselves, thinking this was the time and id happened again. At that point they called the manufacturer who said "If your guys can't tell, then we sure don't know. Replace it and send the old one to us so we can try to figure it out." Had they let the bass fisherman try again, that would have really hurt the manufacturer's reputation and the dealer's.