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Old 05-02-2016, 01:47 PM   #21
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Piech was a tyrant. If the worker bees didn't make this happen they were out of a job.
In the US, I'd guess half the engr's would tell them to F-OFF, the job be damned.

Thus the cultural difference???? Germans have a history of "doing what they are told". To put it mildly...
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Old 05-02-2016, 01:47 PM   #22
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PS, banning VW in this country would punish a lot more than VW. The dealers, mechanics, salesmen, the VW factory workers in this country had NOTHING to do with this fraud.

On another note, not too sure they can even go into another country, third world or otherwise. They will not even let them in India, which has very, very lax EPA rules..
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Old 05-02-2016, 02:04 PM   #23
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Nothing is ever as it seems

Nothing is ever as it seems; especially when you think it's obvious.

From last week's op-ed in the WSJ:

From 27 April 2016 Wall Street Journal:
"OPINION

The Auto Emissions Crackup

One more example of what an analyst calls ‘sophisticated state failure.’

By Holman W. Jenkins, Jr. | 762 words

As expected, Volkswagen’s scandal over emissions cheating is spreading to other car makers. Porsche, Audi, Mercedes and GM’s Opel division in Germany are recalling cars for failing emissions tests.

In France, Renault and Peugeot have been raided by police. Japan’s Mitsubishi admitted on Tuesday that it had been fudging mileage data for 25 years, putting the company’s survival in doubt.

In an honest world the scandal would now spread to the agencies and politicians that conspire to set implausible rules and then help create ways around them for industries that employ millions of their voters and whose products are of vital daily purpose to virtually everyone in their societies.

The crackup here is bigger than the crackup of a single regulatory initiative. The problem only begins with agencies maniacally hoeing their row because it’s theirs, beyond reason, with science reduced to their useful idiot.

Take the Environmental Protection Agency standard that Volkswagen, in its still-unexplained obsession with reconquering the U.S. market with diesel cars, is guilty of flouting.

EPA’s latest target of 0.07 grams of nitrogen oxide per mile represents a 90% reduction from NOx output of the average car on the road today.

It represents a 97% reduction compared to the 100 million pickup trucks on the road. The law of diminishing returns, if agencies behaved rationally, would have caused EPA to declare victory on nitrogen oxide and turn to other matters.

But acting rationally is not an agency interest. The Clean Air Act gave EPA the atmosphere as its regulatory bailiwick, and it won’t let go.

And since racking up of continued costs for small gains must be justified somehow, an unsupported scientific orthodoxy is rolled out—the theory, which permeates federal regulatory endeavors, that anything toxic in large amounts is toxic in small amounts.

Even the chair of the EPA’s Clean Air Scientific Advisory Committee testified in 1997: “I do not believe we are sufficiently well-informed to make the judgment that regulating [fine particulates] to near background levels is an appropriate national commitment.”

The agency since then, of course, has made an even bolder leap to claim that the Clean Air Act entitles it to regulate virtually all activities in the atmosphere in the name of climate change, though 85% of the relevant activities take place outside the U.S. beyond EPA’s reach.

It might seem easy to blame the politicians who superintend this machine, but politicians come and go, while the machine endures.

The Bush administration started out criticizing fuel-mileage standards as perverse and ineffective, yet when the Iraq war went bad, President Bush seized on tighter rules to suggest he was making war on America’s “oil addiction.”

The fuel-economy regime was created in 1975 when gasoline price controls were still extant. If politicians wouldn’t let price ration usage, they needed another way to temper demand—that was the idea behind fuel-economy mandates.

Those price controls are long gone but the mileage mandates survive because so many interests have sprung into being around them, though the cited purpose has become “emissions,”not “energy security.”

In setting his own mileage goals, President Obama selected 54.5 miles-per-gallon because the White House wanted an impressive “headline number.”

The actual target is closer to 40 mpg when various allowances, gimmes, favors to U.S. auto makers at the expense of their foreign counterparts, subsidies to pet technologies, etc., are counted.

And of course, “your mileage may vary,”because the EPA and auto makers silently agreed on a testing procedure that has nothing to do with real-world driving.

The ne plus ultra is Tesla, a company massively propped up by indirect and direct official handouts. Electricity is the most important source of global greenhouse emissions, so the U.S. pays Tesla to make a car that runs on electricity.

Multiply the emissions scandal by many thousands and you have the crackup of the Western model of governance.

Their retirement systems were premised on workforces growing faster than retired populations, yet now are helpless to adjust when the opposite is true. Their tax and welfare systems suppress work, entrepreneurship and eventually childbearing, and now need to be kept ambulatory by direct lending from their central banks.

One thing that can’t be changed, though, is the programs themselves no matter how maladaptive they prove. Jan Techau, of Carnegie Europe, coined the phrase “sophisticated state failure”for the impasse afflicting the advanced industrial nations.

If you think the U.S. is somehow immune to rigid elites and dysfunctional priorities, somehow specially blessed, think again. If you suppose Donald Trump is the solution, an even ruder awakening may be coming.■

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Old 05-02-2016, 02:15 PM   #24
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WX- Profound. Thanks for posting.
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Old 05-02-2016, 02:52 PM   #25
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For the past couple years I have been following the development of the diesel Mazda6. Most of you likely have never heard of such a thing because while the car has been available in other markets, Mazda has not introduced it into the US.

Mazda wanted to have a diesel sedan that could achieve the required emissions standard without the use of an emission treatment liquid. Mazda's engineers did it. However, Mazda wasn't happy with the performance of the engine. Mazda seems to know their customer base pretty well and decided that Mazda drivers would be unhappy with the lack of "Zoom Zoom" from the diesel engine. They have kept delaying the US release until they could solve the problem.

Now my guess, (and this is only a guess) is that Mazda felt that if VW could achieve a peppy diesel engine that didn't require emission additives, the they should be able to do it as well. They just couldn't figure out how. Instead of introducing a car that would disappoint and instead of cheating, they delayed. My guess is that with the VW scandal, the US market for diesel cars will take such a hit that Mazda will give up on a diesel Mazda6 for the US market. Too bad.
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Old 05-02-2016, 03:00 PM   #26
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Maybe not...there are a lot of smart people I this country and follow worldwide tech.

Even just a few well known people can influence millions...as we fortunately and unfortunately see all too often.

Heck, some think all but a few on TF aren't too bright...I disagree.... I think it is the other way around.

Hopefully VWs greed will rank there with Wall Steets and other coporate greed and somehow we will get past it.
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Old 05-02-2016, 03:21 PM   #27
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...yank the ice flow from under a polar bear.
That's a gem!
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Old 05-02-2016, 03:59 PM   #28
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The likely new President brags about not driving and really hating cars. She will have us all in Tesla pickups making 100 miles per day when hauling that boat trailer.

We are in for a continued bumpy ride on governing emissions and fuel standards. Best advice, just keep those old cars going like we live in Havana.
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Old 05-02-2016, 04:35 PM   #29
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..........I agree that the best option would be some financial punishment on VW to discourage future cheating, some compensation to the owners for their loss of value... ...........
Who at VW will be paying the fines? President? CEO? Engineers?

Nope. Customers will pay the fine. The price will go up or the quality will go down.
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Old 05-02-2016, 04:44 PM   #30
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............ We need to start letting people know laws actually mean something. ...........
Well, I agree with you on that, but in my area, they don't even try to enforce jaywalking laws or laws against riding a bicycle on the sidewalk or the wrong side of the road. Stop signs? You're lucky if they even slow down. Red lights? Forget about it.

Take care of the little things and the bigger ones will fall in line.

Want to punish VW - Put the people who approved the design in jail. Lock them up.
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Old 05-02-2016, 04:51 PM   #31
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No need to worry about VW's guilty parties spending some quality time in a small, cosy facility, any more than a few bankers or lawyers in NYC will.

But maybe this rant should continue in the off-color, off-topic page.
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Old 05-02-2016, 05:09 PM   #32
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Who at VW will be paying the fines? President? CEO? Engineers?

Nope. Customers will pay the fine. The price will go up or the quality will go down.
Beg to differ. The stuckee will be the stockholders. They are in a competitive market with a largely undifferentiated product and they will be unable to pass on the added costs. Who would by a VW and Mercedes Benz prices? What is ironic is the stockholders was and is paying the executives of VW big bucks to prevent this type of thing from happening. A miserable break down in internal controls.
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Old 05-02-2016, 05:50 PM   #33
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Greetings,
To get back to the OP. There is a world of difference between on road and marine use for a lot of motors. On road, a motor is "working" about 20% of the time. On water, a motor is "working" about 90%+ of the time. I would think a VW diesel would be too light weight for the rigors of marine use.
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Old 05-02-2016, 05:52 PM   #34
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Greetings,
To get back to the OP. There is a world of difference between on road and marine use for a lot of motors. On road, a motor is "working" about 20% of the time. On water, a motor is "working" about 90%+ of the time. I would think a VW diesel would be too light weight for the rigors of marine use.
I agree, but tell that to Mercury Marine.

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Old 05-02-2016, 06:14 PM   #35
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I agree, but tell that to Mercury Marine.

David
I think the VW engine could do fine around 120hp in marine dress. Do the coolers and other marine hardware right and it should do ok. Big qualifier there, though.

60hp/liter.. Similar to Yanmar 4JH, Volvo 41, D4, D6, QSB 380, QSC 540, C12, C32, etc etc. All in the same ballpark.

Yanmar 6LP, 6LY, the hot Q Cummins are up at 75hp/liter and up. That's like the marine VW up around 150hp in marine dress. Doable, but sketchy.

Actually the better metric is BMEP, as engines get bigger the rpm must come down, so work per fire goes up.

And VW has a rep for making tough engines. Lots of VW stuff to gripe about, but their four banger diesels are tough.
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Old 05-02-2016, 06:23 PM   #36
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Greetings,
To get back to the OP. There is a world of difference between on road and marine use for a lot of motors. On road, a motor is "working" about 20% of the time. On water, a motor is "working" about 90%+ of the time. I would think a VW diesel would be too light weight for the rigors of marine use.
Would not be very dependable either. Since 2009 the MK6 engine has had dependability issues. Ask me how I know! Just google VW diesel high pressure fuel pump issues. I went through 3 before 40,000 miles.

Unless you could reprogram the ECU for Marine use i am afraid they would be useless.

Ski, they where tough until the newer MK6 engine came out. The older MK5's and MK4's were some of the best. My older MK5 went over 200'000 miles and could still get 55 MPG when it meet its demise!
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Old 05-02-2016, 06:35 PM   #37
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Would not be very dependable either. Since 2009 the MK6 engine has had dependability issues. Ask me how I know! Just google VW diesel high pressure fuel pump issues. I went through 3 before 40,000 miles.

Unless you could reprogram the ECU for Marine use i am afraid they would be useless.

Ski, they where tough until the newer MK6 engine came out. The older MK5's and MK4's were some of the best. My older MK5 went over 200'000 miles and could still get 55 MPG when it meet its demise!
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:07 PM   #38
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We have a 2011 VW Jetta Diesel. We easily get 47MPG HWY and 36 city and flies over 11,000ft mountain passes. Plenty of low end torque.

Perhaps 70 percent of Duramax, Cummins, and Powerstrokes have delete kits resulting in far more noxious gases in the atmosphere but I don't hear anyone complaining. Plenty of Detroits in trawlers if we want to bring up an engine that emits lots of noxious gases.

We told the dealer do not touch our TDI and they laughed. Seemed like they heard it before. I love my Isuzu c240 60hp in my trawler but personally I wouldn't be afraid to use a VW TDI if marinized parts were made available at a reasonable price.

I have yet to see any soot come out of the tailpipe of my TDI and smells clean at high altitude unlike the Isuzu. Owned and rebuilt several VW diesels. Pretty simple machines. Parts availability would be a plus for a marinized VW TDI.
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:37 PM   #39
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We need to start letting people know laws actually mean something. Making a mistake or pushing a limit is one thing...designing software to lie to the government is tantamount to treason when the vast majority of the money leaves the country.

if that was the case at least one of the presidential candidates would be in prison.
Fine them a fixed amount equal to the profit on each car evolved and move on.
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Old 05-02-2016, 11:12 PM   #40
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I don't recall seeing a marinized application for a 4 cyl. VW TDI, even in Europe, although there are some 4 cyl. versions listed by VW as in "Industrial" applications. Even the Greenline 33, 40 and 48' models use the 5 cylinder models in the naturally aspirated 75, and Turbo 120 and 220 HP versions. The 4 cyl VW diesels are marvelous engines. If those engine became available cheaply, there surely must be an opportunist out there willing to do something with them, whether marine, industrial, third world or perhaps developing some new, daring green technology to clean them up sufficiently for the use VW intended and still fit under the hood.
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