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Old 10-05-2015, 01:28 AM   #41
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I expect just a software change and will loose about 2 miles per gallon based on the advertised EPA numbers vs what we actually get with out TDI. As soon as it is off warranty it will get chipped ...pull the chip for smog test and pop it back in when done.
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Old 10-05-2015, 05:56 AM   #42
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So far the numbers I have read on the costs to VW are child's play compared to the hit BP had for their Gulf O'Mex fiasco.

The way I look at it, any costs to VW are in effect transfer payments. VW pays consumers, dealers, governments, lawyers, etc and they get to spend the money. No real concern for economic slowdown unless the hit is so big VW goes under but even then, it would be Chapter 11 type bankruptcy and not a Chapter 7 type bankruptcy or whatever equivalents they have in Germany.
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:58 AM   #43
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Local communities with VW plants must be very concerned about the fallout. VW built a $1 B assembly plant for Passats in my home town, Chattanooga, TN a few years ago. I think it's the only VW manufacturing facility in the US. It employs over 3000 and claims a $12 B positive impact on the area's economy. Lots to lose if the worst happens . . . for the stupidest of reasons.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:17 AM   #44
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I have owned TDI's since 2003. Had an 03, 06, and 09 Wagon back to 06. Never had any trouble with them, 06, 09 if rechipped I estimate top speed around 140 mph. Govenour kicks in on my US models @ 130. Tried it once in Big Bend country, SouthWest Texas.

0 to 60 7-8 seconds. Very peppy. Drove the length of Tennesse west to east at 75 mph got 50 mpg. They handle like a sports car, very German.

The EPA standard they were tricking is based on junk science, as FF said but that still does not make VW's stunt right. They should have gotten the other diesel makers together and sued the EPA and US Government. That would have been the right way to do it. It appears German attitude of superiority and arrogance has caught up with them.

They are not the only one caught up here. The Dodge 5.9 Cummins ceased in 2007. Dodge had to upsize. Bye bye 3/4 ton Dodge @26 mpg.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:29 AM   #45
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And how will VW compensate owners for loss of resale value which will be an issue fixed or not?
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:03 AM   #46
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The EPA standard they were tricking is based on junk science, as FF said but that still does not make VW's stunt right. They should have gotten the other diesel makers together and sued the EPA and US Government. That would have been the right way to do it. It appears German attitude of superiority and arrogance has caught up with them.

.
No junk science at all. In crowded areas NOXs are big smog producers affecting not only air quality but human health as well. Having spent time working in CA and China and seeing the effects of NOXs, diesel exhaust indeed is a problem as compared to gasoline engines.

Some years ago in CA I was involved with selling AQ credits to another industry and became acutely aware of NOX realities. VW is in for a tough ride, possibly worse than deflate gate
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:07 AM   #47
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And how will VW compensate owners for loss of resale value which will be an issue fixed or not?
I suspect the only re-dress will be through Class Action suits...

Which means Owners will get $25 each and the lawyers will recoup hundreds of millions...
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:11 AM   #48
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My best Beetle story was watching some young guy in very cold ski country weather warming up his beetle so it would turn over.
He warmed it by putting a hubcap full of burning gasoline under the oil pan.
True story.
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:15 AM   #49
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I suspect the only re-dress will be through Class Action suits...

Which means Owners will get $25 each and the lawyers will recoup hundreds of millions...
Nope. Owners will get a $25 credit IF they buy a new VW.....sigh.
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:17 AM   #50
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The NY Times had an interesting article today on the VW fiasco. It said that in 2008 after investing millions, maybe billions in a new diesel engine, it discovered it couldn't meet the EPA emissions requirements. So it came up with the cheating software.

Now obviously with the software in emissions mode, it could meet those requirements, but I suspect that driveability, power, economy suffered. So instead of going back to the drawing board and using other NOx control technologies, they cheated. It was a conscious decision made at a very high level.

So as some have speculated here the fix may not be easy without compromising performance as it may require more than a software flash. Supposedly VW will announce the fix on Wednesday. Stay tuned.

David
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:51 AM   #51
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Compromising performance?

Well there's lots to compromise. We drove a 2012 VW diesel sedan for a day while our Golf was getting a new timing belt. Unbeliveably fast. You could take away 25% of the power and few would complain .. only the car buffs that read sports car magazines would even notice.

We bought a new Jetta (14) turbo gas. Don't really see why people like the diesel. The gas car got 35mpg average. Who needs more milliage than that? And true the diesel was very quiet and smooth ....... for a diesel. But not as smooth and quiet as a gaser. And they cost much more .. and for what I say. Nada IMO.

The Jetta wasn't very civilized so we got a Honda Accord. Magic car and I especially like the CVT trans. That's a huge breakthrough in automotive design .. assuming they don't fail too often.
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Old 10-05-2015, 11:53 AM   #52
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The NY Times had an interesting article today on the VW fiasco. It said that in 2008 after investing millions, maybe billions in a new diesel engine, it discovered it couldn't meet the EPA emissions requirements. So it came up with the cheating software.

Now obviously with the software in emissions mode, it could meet those requirements, but I suspect that driveability, power, economy suffered. So instead of going back to the drawing board and using other NOx control technologies, they cheated. It was a conscious decision made at a very high level.

So as some have speculated here the fix may not be easy without compromising performance as it may require more than a software flash. Supposedly VW will announce the fix on Wednesday. Stay tuned.

David
Back when the TDI's were coming back on market with the common rail, the word amongst gear heads was that the EPA would not allow SCR/DEF NOx control because owners could not be trusted to refill the tanks. So they had to come up with an alternate strategy, the lean NOx trap or LNT, which was not as effective as SCR/DEF.

Not sure if that is true, but remember reading such way back when...

What a mess. I really enjoy driving my 2001 TDI, and when it comes time to replace it, I would like to get another. They really do drive that well. Not sure they will stay in production after this, but I hope they do.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:10 PM   #53
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Back when the TDI's were coming back on market with the common rail, the word amongst gear heads was that the EPA would not allow SCR/DEF NOx control because owners could not be trusted to refill the tanks. So they had to come up with an alternate strategy, the lean NOx trap or LNT, which was not as effective as SCR/DEF.

Not sure if that is true, but remember reading such way back when...
On our ML-350 Bluetec, if the low DEF warning comes on, you can only start the car 16 times and then it will not start again until the DEF is refilled. The amount of DEF normally lasts the regular manufacturers maintenance cycle. I guess you would call it governance by software.
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:45 PM   #54
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And so it begins. Just saw my first TV ad looking for plaintiffs...

VW Emissions Lawyer Goldberg Attorneys
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:20 PM   #55
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VW Audi and Skoda vehicles with the offending 1.6/2.0 liter diesel engine have been withdrawn from sale here. I doubt there was any demand to meet.
VW is Germany`s fourth biggest employer. Diesels are more common than gas in Europe. There will be repercussions. On our last Europe visit to Spain and Portugal the Skoda Octavia 1.6L diesel rental car used 4.4 liters per hundred kilometers, covering long distances easily and comfortably.
I`m hoping my diesel Peugeot did not have its emissions "adjusted" for test purposes.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:40 PM   #56
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I have had 3 TDIs and currently have 2, a 2009 Jetta and a 2015 Golf. If I can I will opt out of any recall due to this. I did not buy these cars because someone said they are clean, I bought because of performance and mileage. My Jetta will get between 45 - 49 MPG at 70 and my Golf will get between 50 - 53! I'm about ready to do the DPF delete and a stage two tune on the Jetta.


BTW Diesels are not tested in our state.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:13 PM   #57
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Gulfstar 36,
You don't need that performance.
We need clean air more that cool cars.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:29 PM   #58
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LoL, how much do you think my 40 year old 4.236s pollute. If we all worry that much we all should scrap our boats and buy a sail boat.



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Gulfstar 36,
You don't need that performance.
We need clean air more that cool cars.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:33 PM   #59
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Greetings,
Here we go....

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Old 10-05-2015, 09:37 PM   #60
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The NY Times had an interesting article today on the VW fiasco. It said that in 2008 after investing millions, maybe billions in a new diesel engine, it discovered it couldn't meet the EPA emissions requirements. So it came up with the cheating software.

Now obviously with the software in emissions mode, it could meet those requirements, but I suspect that driveability, power, economy suffered. So instead of going back to the drawing board and using other NOx control technologies, they cheated. It was a conscious decision made at a very high level.
Mazda has had a diesel version of its Mazda 6 in the works for a while. It was initially going to hit the market a couple years ago in the US but Mazda pulled it. They were able to meet the emissions standards without the use of an additive, but they weren't able to hit the performance targets that they felt their "Zoom Zoom" customer base expected. Sounds like VW faced the same decision but instead of sitting on a product until they can get it right, they decided to cheat.

With the potential bad press this is giving diesels in the US, I wonder what Mazda will do with its Mazda 6 project now?
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