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Old 10-04-2015, 05:58 AM   #21
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The mind boggles at the audacity of whoever it was in their hierarchy who gave the go-ahead to do, what is in effect, a deliberate, cynical trick to evade emission rules, and bugger the consequences. I hope that person or persons are made to pay somehow, for their callous attitude and the betrayal of all those thousands of other honest VW employees.
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:46 AM   #22
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AS the VW diesel is optimised for great owner operation , and the "problem" is "too much" NOX I dont see the problem.

Sure some gov buroRAT somewhere is unhappy but so what?

An efficient good running car is what folks bought and got.

That the engine does not waste fuel running rich to burn off a cat converter in city driving is not a big deal.

NOX "problems" are not black soot , just an invisiable gas that the true believers computer program has decided is bad for Mother Earth .

Next visit to your dentist , be sure to skip the laughing gas , and save the world!
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:58 AM   #23
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Yeah ... but ... who has had their VW engine burst into flames? Or, used a candle to keep the windshield defrosted in the winter? Or, had to use their and their girlfriend's shoelaces, run out the windows, to work the windshield wipers back-and-forth in a rainstorm? Now THAT'S some VW experiences.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:24 AM   #24
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All kidding aside I love out Jetta tdi. Built before the emission cheat. 50 mpg is hard to dislike
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:05 AM   #25
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I disagree RT. Air cooled engines in a car is a stupid idea unless gas is $.49 a gallon. Way too much heat loss. I had a 1957 36hp Bettle and I liked the little car a lot but never got over 27mpg. And then there's the heater.
I had one with the gasoline heater sitting behind the glove box. It leaked profusely. I have no idea how it never caught fire and bbq'd us.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:24 AM   #26
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Greetings,
I think everyone who ever owned or knew someone that owned a Beetle has a story of some sort of "adventure". That being said, the ubiquitous Beetle carried countless folks on millions upon millions of miles all over the globe for a reasonable price. The air cooled engine, while being a bit thirsty was used to power everything from aircraft to log splitters, ran on every grade of gasoline and liquids that used to be gasoline in conditions that readily destroyed the average engine of the day. The engine was designed to run in every weather condition from Siberia to the Sahara and it did and does, still, to this day. So, love 'em or hate 'em, it is what it is.
The plural of anecdote is NOT evidence.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:45 AM   #27
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Volkswagen Diesel Engine

Plus, they were chick magnets!!!
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:49 AM   #28
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The mind boggles at the audacity of whoever it was in their hierarchy who gave the go-ahead to do, what is in effect, a deliberate, cynical trick to evade emission rules, and bugger the consequences. I hope that person or persons are made to pay somehow, for their callous attitude and the betrayal of all those thousands of other honest VW employees.
This is the baffling part. Emission cheats have been tried before, caught, and made an example of. So any high level management that directed using a cheat would be an idiot, and probably overridden by others.

But the reality could be that the entire thing was done at the lower levels of programmers. Once the dyno lab control maps are finalized, programmers need to group it all together into files and integrate with the other car controls. This sort of "cheat" could be added without many people ever knowing about it. Higher level managers don't sit there and review millions of lines of computer code... Three sneaky programmers could do it by themselves.

Another bit about this: I have asked around and read about the true effects of NOx, and gotten a confusing set of answers. Apparently in dense cities, NOx reacts to form ozone and other nasties, so it is a bad thing there. But out in the country, NOx tends to scavenge atmospheric methane so could be considered a positive?? Also, apparently rather short lived compounds in sunlight and O2. I have yet to find an unbiased full explanation of the life cycle of these NOx emissions that gives both the negatives and the positives and the consequences thereof.

Is it really a big deal??
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Old 10-04-2015, 10:02 AM   #29
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The mind boggles at the audacity of whoever it was in their hierarchy who gave the go-ahead to do, what is in effect, a deliberate, cynical trick to evade emission rules, and bugger the consequences. I hope that person or persons are made to pay somehow, for their callous attitude and the betrayal of all those thousands of other honest VW employees.
Mr. Martin Winterkorn, CEO from Volkswagen in Germany lost his job last month and now only receives a painful US$ 105.000 pension per month. He really pays the bill
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Old 10-04-2015, 10:04 AM   #30
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RT,
I may have to replace my Nissy Ann (87 Nissan) in the near future that I really like (VW level passion) and I see old VW's are fairly cheap even w rebuilt engines and little rust. And Nissy Ann hardly has more power than a VW because of a slipping clutch .. better on some days than others. But we drive locally on almost no hills so it's sorta OK.

IMO Ralph Nader killed VW and Corvair. Rear engines and swing axels though not fuel economy.
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Old 10-04-2015, 12:23 PM   #31
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The emissions testing "defeat" was probably pretty simple to program, and should be simple to un program. Now that cars have all sorts of sensors connected to a master microprocessor, one way was to just check for the rear wheels (or front if front wheel drive) moving and not the other set. That is a pretty good indication that the car is running on a dyno on an emission test stand. Then turn on NOx controls and turn them back off when normal rotation is sensed. Even I could program that one.

Any one involved with developing the engine management code could have done it. Yes a fairly low level programmer could. But why would he want to. There is no benefit for him- no bonus, stock options, etc. if VW sells a lot of cars as a result. You need means, opportunity and motive. The low level guy had no motive.

Someone with those incentives ordered it done. Hopefully one of the low level guys will rat him out.

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Old 10-04-2015, 12:29 PM   #32
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The software change is probably the easy part. The hard part is the hardware changes to comply with the EPA mandates.

Should ask some VW engineers why they decided not to use Mercedes Benz Bluetec and DEF. Cheating was probably easier and cheaper and no royalty payments. Oh, and Audi won't be saying the truth in engineering is really over at their competitors lab.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:11 PM   #33
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The software change is probably the easy part. The hard part is the hardware changes to comply with the EPA mandates.

Should ask some VW engineers why they decided not to use Mercedes Benz Bluetec and DEF. Cheating was probably easier and cheaper and no royalty payments. Oh, and Audi won't be saying the truth in engineering is really over at their competitors lab.
$335 per car would have been all it would have cost..They were warned by Bosch back in 2007. $335 is not insignificant ($3.6B for the 11M cars), but the financial hit VW has taken in Market value has already far exceeded that.
Fixes will result in lower MPG and performance... One of the key selling points of the TDi. This is a huge global deal and affects every owner of TDi equipped cars. My Beetle just depreciated like a stone. Sure glad it's a lease...It will be VW's problem soon..

VW fix would have cost $335 per vehicle

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Old 10-04-2015, 03:18 PM   #34
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Ahhh, the squeegie defroster! It got me out of a drunk driving ticket because the cop was laughing so hard! Those were the days.
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:12 PM   #35
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I loved my Corvair. Then my brother loved my Corvair. You just had to know how to drive it.

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Old 10-04-2015, 08:25 PM   #36
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The most useful feature on my '59 turned out to be the sunroof. After a night of underage drinking, I ran it off a country road in PA and wedged it tightly between two trees. No way were those doors going to open. So I escaped through the sunroof. With blood streaming out of a cut forehead I staggered to the first lighted house I saw, which turned out to be the local constable's. He had a massive poker game going on, so I was not charged and he was not ratted out. Next day my dad pulled it out of the woods with his Jeep and I drove it home.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:45 PM   #37
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My first and only VW was a 1969 Beetle. Served me well for 19 years. Easy to service. I'm a Ford guy now. Needed to move because reality moves too.
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:05 PM   #38
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Catch 22

1. VW modifies the affected engines so they comply with the fraudulent test results. Govt. happy, owners miserable, owners sue VW.
2. VW does not modify the engines. Owners happy performance unchanged but unhappy at allegedly polluting the earth(using Govt. standards). Govt unhappy at fraud and alleged pollution. Owners and Govt sue?
VW is big enough, worldwide enough, exposed enough, for this to have world economic effects. Some of their cars could be taken off the road, others will remain but suffer knock on effects.
You just need one seriously bad economic event to foul up the world economy. We have this, China slowdown, resource price deflation,and world commodity trader/miner Glencore tanking.
Hope I`m totally wrong. The reassuring thing about TF is there is sure to be someone say that. Go for it!
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:16 PM   #39
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1. VW modifies the affected engines so they comply with the fraudulent test results. Govt. happy, owners miserable, owners sue VW.
2. VW does not modify the engines. Owners happy performance unchanged but unhappy at allegedly polluting the earth(using Govt. standards). Govt unhappy at fraud and alleged pollution. Owners and Govt sue?
VW is big enough, worldwide enough, exposed enough, for this to have world economic effects. Some of their cars could be taken off the road, others will remain but suffer knock on effects.
You just need one seriously bad economic event to foul up the world economy. We have this, China slowdown, resource price deflation,and world commodity trader/miner Glencore tanking.
Hope I`m totally wrong. The reassuring thing about TF is there is sure to be someone say that. Go for it!

I seriously think it is a bit of a stretch to think that the world economy is going to go to crap over the vw smog debacle.. vw will no doubt take a hit but some computer geek will write a fix and vw will make a big deal of recalling units to flash the computers and the world will again proclaim farfignugen or what ever the heck the word was.

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Old 10-05-2015, 12:43 AM   #40
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I seriously think it is a bit of a stretch to think that the world economy is going to go to crap over the vw smog debacle.. vw will no doubt take a hit but some computer geek will write a fix and vw will make a big deal of recalling units to flash the computers and the world will again proclaim farfignugen or what ever the heck the word was.

HOLLYWOOD
You are probably right - as far as owners of the cars in question are concerned, and new ones coming along will be compliant from the get-go. However, the penalties they are going to be hit with for flouting many countries strict emission standards are going to be considerable, and have long term effects. The devil will be in the detail. Then there will be the question of just how much it will cost to make the software, and possibly some hardware, recall fixes to make the existing ones compliant.

If it is just a computer program adjustment, which one suspects it might be if they are able to comply when testing is 'sensed', and then switch to 'dirty' mode for better fuel consumption and more power when not, that might not be that bad. But if for continuing on-road reliability and mileage, some actual parts have to be replaced, that could be huge. The other interesting fact, which will emerge no doubt over time, is just how big the economy and power losses will be. At the very least, I think we won't see the ad which ends with a smug..."Das auto", again in a hurry...

Watch this space...as they say...whoever they are...
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