ULSD in older engines

[Bob B.]

My Yanmar is a 4JH2-UTE 1998 vintage. Should I be using an additive for lubricity of lift pump and injectors like the diesel kleen I use in the Cummins in my truck?

 

[Pau Hana]

ULSD is find to use, with or without additives. The low sulphur content of ULSD has more to do with emissions than lubricity.

 

[FF]

Folks with older trucks and coaches will frequently add a can of 2 stroke outboard oil to every 100g of diesel.

 

[catalinajack]

ULSD is find to use, with or without additives. The low sulphur content of ULSD has more to do with emissions than lubricity.

Yes, it does but lower lubricity is the direct result of lower sulphur. To get to 15ppm of sulpur lubricity was lowered so much that suppliers are required to add, wait, additives to raise the lubricity to a minimum standard. For some high pressure common rail diesels, for vehicle and boat, that minimum standard is insufficent to provide the lubricity to protect high cost injectors. As for "old-style" engines (Lehman, Perkins), the necessity of lubricity additives is debatable. I choose to waste my money using an additive for my Lehmans.

 

[psneeld]

I stopped using a fuel additive and my oil analysis actually inmproved on my 120 Lehman and I put 450 to 600 hrs per year.

 

[sunchaser]

I stopped using a fuel additive and my oil analysis actually inmproved on my 120 Lehman and I put 450 to 600 hrs per year.

The snake oil salesman and purveyors of ULSD doom will provide an alternative universe to your practice.

 

[kchace]

There has been a lot of doom and gloom about the lower lubricity of low sulfur fuel, but it's been out for 12 years now and I haven't heard of any rash of injector or injector pump failures. I may very well not know the whole story, but there had been so much awareness at the time that lubricity standards were implemented which fuel must now meet.

 

[Ski in NC]

Pretty much all Yanmar engines I know of, except the 6LP, the injection pumps are mostly lubricated with crankcase oil. Only parts that are fuel lubed are plungers/barrels and injectors. The 6LP uses a Bosch VE clone pump that is all fuel lubed, thus more sensitive.

Plungers, barrels and injectors are not super sensitive to lubricity. Cams and cam followers are, and nice when those are lubed with oil.

When ULSD came out, the sulfur extraction also removed other compounds that were natural lubricants. In order to meet ASTM spec for lubricity, the refiners must add lube compounds. If there is a rash of injection problems, and someone tests the fuel and finds low lubricity, the fuel supplier faces a big liability. They don't want to be there!!

There are some vehicle common rail diesels where the pump is fuel lubed and (in my opinion) have a stupid design. Quite a few problems there that can be attributed to fuel lube characteristics, and those problems can take out the whole fuel system. No such problems I am aware of on marine diesels. The common rail QSB and QSC seem to be holding up fine with stateside fuel.

I don't use or recommend any fuel additives for lubricity. Biocides make sense in some cases where water can't be completely removed from the tank.

Big fan of injection pumps that are crankcase oil lubed.

 

[Lepke]

Interesting effect of low sulfur fuels is high yield farmers are having to add micro amounts of sulfur in their fertilizer to make up for the sulfur that use to be delivered in the air.
I don't think it's a good idea to not use a fuel additive for organisms and water. Eventually it causes problems. The one I use (Archoil 6200), besides killing organisms, making it easier for my Racor to remover water, and dissolving fuel deposits, is a catalyst that helps the burn of today's crappy fuel and increases my mileage by about 6-10% for a few cents per gallon.
I'm a big fan of Detroits because they don't have an injector pump and all the issues that go along with it.

 

[psneeld]

Using an additive is probably dependent on how fast you burn your fuel or how good your supplied fuel is..... Caterpillar Diesel sorta thinks that too.

 

[catalinajack]

There has been a lot of doom and gloom about the lower lubricity of low sulfur fuel, but it's been out for 12 years now and I haven't heard of any rash of injector or injector pump failures. I may very well not know the whole story, but there had been so much awareness at the time that lubricity standards were implemented which fuel must now meet.

Then you need to talk to owners of early model Chevy Duramax diesels.

 

[kchace]

Then you need to talk to owners of early model Chevy Duramax diesels.

I believe that was a Chevy problem.

 

[GMB]

...talk to owners of early model Chevy Duramax diesels.

I have a 2001 Ford with the IH 7.3L. Since exclusive use of ULSD in that truck I've had to rebuild the fuel return valve every couple of years. Two different ford techs at two different dealerships have told me the root cause of the leaks is the new diesel.

 

[psneeld]

I had ZERO issues with my 2001 Ford 7.3 and it never saw an additive in 16 years. Neither did the fleet of Ford rucks the company I worked for.

 

[Lepke]

I had ZERO issues with my 2001 Ford 7.3 and it never saw an additive in 16 years. Neither did the fleet of Ford rucks the company I worked for.

With a fleet, maintenance maybe changing injectors and other parts you're not aware of. The 7.3 Ford diesel has known stiction problems limiting the life of injectors and fuel system parts because of buildups. I know, I have one. With the additive, my injectors last twice the Ford normal life cycle. And the additive makes the crappy fuel burn better. When not towing and traveling under 60, I get 25mpg. I bet your trucks didn't get that.

 

[psneeld]

With a fleet, maintenance maybe changing injectors and other parts you're not aware of. The 7.3 Ford diesel has known stiction problems limiting the life of injectors and fuel system parts because of buildups. I know, I have one. With the additive, my injectors last twice the Ford normal life cycle. And the additive makes the crappy fuel burn better. When not towing and traveling under 60, I get 25mpg. I bet your trucks didn't get that.

It was a small fleet and they were worked on right next to the boats I worked on. If a 7.3 was getting worked on, I wandered over for experience. I obviously didn't see every evolution but had a pretty good idea from my inquisitive nature.

 

[sdowney717]

ULSD fuel is definitely a problem in Cummins or FORD or GM common rail high pressure injection system that use a CP4 Bosch injection pump. I am on this site
https://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/2019-general-discussion/2504857-new-cp4-2.html. When the pump goes it takes out the entire fuel system, all of it including lines has to replaced and it is entirely due to ULSD in the USA where they have not been mixing in at least 2% bio diesel which would fix the problem.
In the EU, they mandated 20% biodiesel mix and have not had these destructive effects to the CP4 pumps or injectors or other model injection pumps. These pumps are putting out 25,000 to 40,000 PSI and will someday be up to 60,000 psi, so yes the US needs to mandate bio diesel as Europe did for the improved lubricity. Some states already require biodiesel to be mixed into diesel.

https://www.forthepeople.com/class-action-lawyers/cp4-pump-failure-lawsuit/

 

[Ski in NC]

Maybe Bosch should design a pump where any pump chamber wear products would go into the return and NOT into the pump chamber, thus injectors. That involves a few fitting changes and NOTHING else. Oh No, the American engineers can't tell the German engineers anything, they are smarter than we are.

Some of those pump designs get the dumbass award.

 

[sdowney717]

Maybe Bosch should design a pump where any pump chamber wear products would go into the return and NOT into the pump chamber, thus injectors. That involves a few fitting changes and NOTHING else. Oh No, the American engineers can't tell the German engineers anything, they are smarter than we are.

Some of those pump designs get the dumbass award.

I dont think Bosch cares.
The more pump failures the more parts they sell, the more mechanics get paid, the more the dealers make, only the end customer gets screwed. The diesel experience will get tainted worse that it should be.

I have the Bosch CP3 in my diesel truck and it s been perfect for 160,000 miles.
I have heard the Nippon Denso HP4 is engineered very similar to the CP3 pump and is a good pump, GM is using them now

What irks me, the diesel car and truck makers keep- screwing the public with their bad choices. They totally ruined the diesel experience to the general public with the GM 350 diesel, then there was diesel-gate with Volkswagen.
Now I read the EU is banning diesel engines and wont allow any diesel sales for vehicles in a few years as they hate the diesel exhaust pollution, which they claim gives people cancer. I am sure US cities wont be too far behind efforts to ban diesel engines. Gasoline will continue to rule. But you know they are betting so hard on electric vehicles, and no one really knows how well or how bad that will turn out.

 

[BruceK]

..What irks me, the diesel car and truck makers keep- screwing the public with their bad choices. They totally ruined the diesel experience to the general public with the GM 350 diesel, then there was diesel-gate with Volkswagen.
Now I read the EU is banning diesel engines and wont allow any diesel sales for vehicles in a few years as they hate the diesel exhaust pollution, which they claim gives people cancer. I am sure US cities wont be too far behind efforts to ban diesel engines. Gasoline will continue to rule....

Back from a trip to Europe,there are probably a majority of diesel vehicles there. We had a Skoda with gasoline turbo (VW)engine, similar fuel burn to diesel Skoda Octavia and Ford Focus previously hired, about 4.2L/100km per fuel computer.
At one point larger Peugeots here were diesel only, now it`s changing to gas only. Sad,I like my Peugeot diesel,150KW/450Nm,but hard to argue with carcinogens.

 

[FF]

"so yes the US needs to mandate bio diesel as Europe did for the improved lubricity. Some states already require biodiesel to be mixed into diesel.

The problem is there are probably 1000 times as many diesel cars and trucks as boats.

Even with DEF the air police mandated exhaust systems fail rapidly with bio gunk over 5% or so.

Our M-B V6 diesel goes out of warranty if over 5% bio is used and steps are not taken to clear the system.

 

[sdowney717]

"so yes the US needs to mandate bio diesel as Europe did for the improved lubricity. Some states already require biodiesel to be mixed into diesel.

The problem is there are probably 1000 times as many diesel cars and trucks as boats.

Even with DEF the air police mandated exhaust systems fail rapidly with bio gunk over 5% or so.

Our M-B V6 diesel goes out of warranty if over 5% bio is used and steps are not taken to clear the system.

The politicians and technocrats will eventually legislate diesels out of existence for cars and trucks.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/dri...in-electric-powered-future-eu-regulator-says/
https://www.express.co.uk/life-styl...s-finished-EU-Commissioner-Europe-engine-fuel
https://e360.yale.edu/features/end-of-the-road-are-diesel-cars-on-the-way-out-in-europe
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-sales-by-2030-to-meet-climate-targets-report

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...rs-from-cities-say-half-of-uk-drivers-in-poll
https://www.transportenvironment.org/news/more-cities-get-tough-diesel
Its just a matter of when not if that happens here in the USA too. I question the future of diesel engines, you know the market for small craft like ours is a drop in the bucket. So if the trend is negative, then the diesel research will dry up and the engines no longer will be available for sale. It might be years away, but already EU is going that way in 10 yrs or less.

I really wonder what will happen to the price of diesel fuel, if diesel engines decline greatly in number. The incentive to make diesel will decline, what will that do to supply and demand, i just dont know. Big ships will be diesel powered maybe for a very long time to come.

 

[sdowney717]

And this just showed up, Americans no longer want diesel engines, the exception is in heavy duty trucks, of course also bigger boats.
So the trend is set in the direction of doing away with diesel eventually and the public seems to agree. Considering what the EPA has demanded from diesel engine makers and the compliance being so expensive, and in repair cost and upfront costs, of course except for niche applications the public is doing what they logically think they must financially do to cope to the technocrats rules and legislations.

https://carbuzz.com/news/chevy-and-gmc-say-americans-don-t-want-diesel-engines

 

[sdowney717]

"so yes the US needs to mandate bio diesel as Europe did for the improved lubricity. Some states already require biodiesel to be mixed into diesel.

The problem is there are probably 1000 times as many diesel cars and trucks as boats.

Even with DEF the air police mandated exhaust systems fail rapidly with bio gunk over 5% or so.

Our M-B V6 diesel goes out of warranty if over 5% bio is used and steps are not taken to clear the system.

Must have a different warranty in Europe then. The reports I have read is that a minimum of 2% solves a lot of lubricity problems with ULSD.
I would be a lot happier if VA did as Oregon does, states like Oregon mandate 5%. I did notice Sunoco diesel runs the engine smoother than WAWA diesel. I called the station but they know nothing.

https://portlandgreenenergy.wordpress.com/ethanol-and-biodiesel-in-oregon/
Oregon has a 5% biodiesel content mandate for all diesel fuel sold in the state. The City of Portland Oregon has a 5% biodiesel content mandate which requires that 50% of the feedstock be from the Pacific NW states. The city and state government believe it will promote the development of a high-tech renewable energy industry based in Oregon.