Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-26-2019, 09:42 PM   #1
Member
 
City: Dodgeville, Wi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Honu
Vessel Model: 25 foot Atlas Acadia
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 20
ULSD in older engines

My Yanmar is a 4JH2-UTE 1998 vintage. Should I be using an additive for lubricity of lift pump and injectors like the diesel kleen I use in the Cummins in my truck?
__________________
Advertisement

Bob B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2019, 09:50 PM   #2
Guru
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,902
ULSD is find to use, with or without additives. The low sulphur content of ULSD has more to do with emissions than lubricity.
__________________

__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 06:18 AM   #3
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19,152
Folks with older trucks and coaches will frequently add a can of 2 stroke outboard oil to every 100g of diesel.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 07:07 AM   #4
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
ULSD is find to use, with or without additives. The low sulphur content of ULSD has more to do with emissions than lubricity.
Yes, it does but lower lubricity is the direct result of lower sulphur. To get to 15ppm of sulpur lubricity was lowered so much that suppliers are required to add, wait, additives to raise the lubricity to a minimum standard. For some high pressure common rail diesels, for vehicle and boat, that minimum standard is insufficent to provide the lubricity to protect high cost injectors. As for "old-style" engines (Lehman, Perkins), the necessity of lubricity additives is debatable. I choose to waste my money using an additive for my Lehmans.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 07:43 AM   #5
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: ACIW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,122
I stopped using a fuel additive and my oil analysis actually inmproved on my 120 Lehman and I put 450 to 600 hrs per year.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 09:47 AM   #6
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I stopped using a fuel additive and my oil analysis actually inmproved on my 120 Lehman and I put 450 to 600 hrs per year.
The snake oil salesman and purveyors of ULSD doom will provide an alternative universe to your practice.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 09:58 AM   #7
Guru
 
kchace's Avatar
 
City: Brookline, NH
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Blue Heaven
Vessel Model: Albin 43 classic double cabin, twin 135 Lehmans
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,471
There has been a lot of doom and gloom about the lower lubricity of low sulfur fuel, but it's been out for 12 years now and I haven't heard of any rash of injector or injector pump failures. I may very well not know the whole story, but there had been so much awareness at the time that lubricity standards were implemented which fuel must now meet.
kchace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 10:25 AM   #8
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,152
Pretty much all Yanmar engines I know of, except the 6LP, the injection pumps are mostly lubricated with crankcase oil. Only parts that are fuel lubed are plungers/barrels and injectors. The 6LP uses a Bosch VE clone pump that is all fuel lubed, thus more sensitive.

Plungers, barrels and injectors are not super sensitive to lubricity. Cams and cam followers are, and nice when those are lubed with oil.

When ULSD came out, the sulfur extraction also removed other compounds that were natural lubricants. In order to meet ASTM spec for lubricity, the refiners must add lube compounds. If there is a rash of injection problems, and someone tests the fuel and finds low lubricity, the fuel supplier faces a big liability. They don't want to be there!!

There are some vehicle common rail diesels where the pump is fuel lubed and (in my opinion) have a stupid design. Quite a few problems there that can be attributed to fuel lube characteristics, and those problems can take out the whole fuel system. No such problems I am aware of on marine diesels. The common rail QSB and QSC seem to be holding up fine with stateside fuel.

I don't use or recommend any fuel additives for lubricity. Biocides make sense in some cases where water can't be completely removed from the tank.

Big fan of injection pumps that are crankcase oil lubed.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 11:30 AM   #9
Guru
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Country: US
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,437
Interesting effect of low sulfur fuels is high yield farmers are having to add micro amounts of sulfur in their fertilizer to make up for the sulfur that use to be delivered in the air.
I don't think it's a good idea to not use a fuel additive for organisms and water. Eventually it causes problems. The one I use (Archoil 6200), besides killing organisms, making it easier for my Racor to remover water, and dissolving fuel deposits, is a catalyst that helps the burn of today's crappy fuel and increases my mileage by about 6-10% for a few cents per gallon.
I'm a big fan of Detroits because they don't have an injector pump and all the issues that go along with it.



Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 12:04 PM   #10
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: ACIW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,122
Using an additive is probably dependent on how fast you burn your fuel or how good your supplied fuel is..... Caterpillar Diesel sorta thinks that too.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 03:24 PM   #11
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 749
Quote:
Originally Posted by kchace View Post
There has been a lot of doom and gloom about the lower lubricity of low sulfur fuel, but it's been out for 12 years now and I haven't heard of any rash of injector or injector pump failures. I may very well not know the whole story, but there had been so much awareness at the time that lubricity standards were implemented which fuel must now meet.
Then you need to talk to owners of early model Chevy Duramax diesels.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2019, 03:27 PM   #12
Guru
 
kchace's Avatar
 
City: Brookline, NH
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Blue Heaven
Vessel Model: Albin 43 classic double cabin, twin 135 Lehmans
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
Then you need to talk to owners of early model Chevy Duramax diesels.
I believe that was a Chevy problem.
kchace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2019, 07:32 PM   #13
GMB
Veteran Member
 
GMB's Avatar
 
City: East Central Florida
Country: US
Vessel Name: Joy Shared
Vessel Model: Gulfstar 44 Motor Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
...talk to owners of early model Chevy Duramax diesels.

I have a 2001 Ford with the IH 7.3L. Since exclusive use of ULSD in that truck I've had to rebuild the fuel return valve every couple of years. Two different ford techs at two different dealerships have told me the root cause of the leaks is the new diesel.
GMB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2019, 07:49 PM   #14
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: ACIW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,122
I had ZERO issues with my 2001 Ford 7.3 and it never saw an additive in 16 years. Neither did the fleet of Ford rucks the company I worked for.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2019, 01:10 PM   #15
Guru
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Country: US
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I had ZERO issues with my 2001 Ford 7.3 and it never saw an additive in 16 years. Neither did the fleet of Ford rucks the company I worked for.
With a fleet, maintenance maybe changing injectors and other parts you're not aware of. The 7.3 Ford diesel has known stiction problems limiting the life of injectors and fuel system parts because of buildups. I know, I have one. With the additive, my injectors last twice the Ford normal life cycle. And the additive makes the crappy fuel burn better. When not towing and traveling under 60, I get 25mpg. I bet your trucks didn't get that.


Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2019, 02:21 PM   #16
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: ACIW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
With a fleet, maintenance maybe changing injectors and other parts you're not aware of. The 7.3 Ford diesel has known stiction problems limiting the life of injectors and fuel system parts because of buildups. I know, I have one. With the additive, my injectors last twice the Ford normal life cycle. And the additive makes the crappy fuel burn better. When not towing and traveling under 60, I get 25mpg. I bet your trucks didn't get that.


It was a small fleet and they were worked on right next to the boats I worked on. If a 7.3 was getting worked on, I wandered over for experience. I obviously didn't see every evolution but had a pretty good idea from my inquisitive nature.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2019, 02:51 PM   #17
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,970
ULSD fuel is definitely a problem in Cummins or FORD or GM common rail high pressure injection system that use a CP4 Bosch injection pump. I am on this site
https://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/2...new-cp4-2.html. When the pump goes it takes out the entire fuel system, all of it including lines has to replaced and it is entirely due to ULSD in the USA where they have not been mixing in at least 2% bio diesel which would fix the problem.
In the EU, they mandated 20% biodiesel mix and have not had these destructive effects to the CP4 pumps or injectors or other model injection pumps. These pumps are putting out 25,000 to 40,000 PSI and will someday be up to 60,000 psi, so yes the US needs to mandate bio diesel as Europe did for the improved lubricity. Some states already require biodiesel to be mixed into diesel.

https://www.forthepeople.com/class-a...ilure-lawsuit/
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2019, 06:04 PM   #18
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,152
Maybe Bosch should design a pump where any pump chamber wear products would go into the return and NOT into the pump chamber, thus injectors. That involves a few fitting changes and NOTHING else. Oh No, the American engineers can't tell the German engineers anything, they are smarter than we are.

Some of those pump designs get the dumbass award.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2019, 06:25 PM   #19
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Maybe Bosch should design a pump where any pump chamber wear products would go into the return and NOT into the pump chamber, thus injectors. That involves a few fitting changes and NOTHING else. Oh No, the American engineers can't tell the German engineers anything, they are smarter than we are.

Some of those pump designs get the dumbass award.
I dont think Bosch cares.
The more pump failures the more parts they sell, the more mechanics get paid, the more the dealers make, only the end customer gets screwed. The diesel experience will get tainted worse that it should be.

I have the Bosch CP3 in my diesel truck and it s been perfect for 160,000 miles.
I have heard the Nippon Denso HP4 is engineered very similar to the CP3 pump and is a good pump, GM is using them now

What irks me, the diesel car and truck makers keep- screwing the public with their bad choices. They totally ruined the diesel experience to the general public with the GM 350 diesel, then there was diesel-gate with Volkswagen.
Now I read the EU is banning diesel engines and wont allow any diesel sales for vehicles in a few years as they hate the diesel exhaust pollution, which they claim gives people cancer. I am sure US cities wont be too far behind efforts to ban diesel engines. Gasoline will continue to rule. But you know they are betting so hard on electric vehicles, and no one really knows how well or how bad that will turn out.
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2019, 07:30 PM   #20
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 9,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
..What irks me, the diesel car and truck makers keep- screwing the public with their bad choices. They totally ruined the diesel experience to the general public with the GM 350 diesel, then there was diesel-gate with Volkswagen.
Now I read the EU is banning diesel engines and wont allow any diesel sales for vehicles in a few years as they hate the diesel exhaust pollution, which they claim gives people cancer. I am sure US cities wont be too far behind efforts to ban diesel engines. Gasoline will continue to rule....
Back from a trip to Europe,there are probably a majority of diesel vehicles there. We had a Skoda with gasoline turbo (VW)engine, similar fuel burn to diesel Skoda Octavia and Ford Focus previously hired, about 4.2L/100km per fuel computer.
At one point larger Peugeots here were diesel only, now it`s changing to gas only. Sad,I like my Peugeot diesel,150KW/450Nm,but hard to argue with carcinogens.
__________________

__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012