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Old 11-25-2011, 07:37 AM   #1
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twin vs. single engine rages on....

My daughter drew this drawing last night just before going to bed. * She is 7 1/2. *I now know where she stands on the single vs. twin engine debate! *
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:43 AM   #2
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Tony, now that we have that settled, maybe we should start a thread on the "chicken and egg" debate!

*

PS:* Still haven't heard from you on that other thingy.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:52 AM   #3
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Don, what other thingy? I haven't gotten any messages? I see here the forum says I have a new Pm but it won't let me see it. Email me directly at Anthony@WatermarkMarineGroup.com
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:34 AM   #4
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twin vs. single engine rages on....

I see she also uses a stern anchor! That should wake up Eric.

-- Edited by Giggitoni on Friday 25th of November 2011 10:34:37 AM

-- Edited by Giggitoni on Friday 25th of November 2011 10:36:06 AM
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Old 11-25-2011, 11:18 AM   #5
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

I've never anchored off the stern but I've thought about it to reduce the sailing. My opinion on twin screw is well established. The only reason I'm posting now is that gig was talk'in about me. I usually do'nt post on a thread about something I'm not interested in like TV on boats or "how should I remodel my FB". It's hard to talk about twins on TF because so many manufacturers put double the hp in twins or/and half the hp in singles. Many times I've said how stupid that is/was and the fact that most here on the forum ca'nt conceive of a boat model where a twin and single engine versions where both have the same amount of power talking about it becomes impossible. Another aspect of this is that in 1975 a 240hp trawler was quite appropriate marketing wise but now probably most would want a 120hp boat. And I think a 120hp 36' trawler is much more appropriate design wise (now) but what I think is actually ideal would be a 36' trawler w a full disp stern not unlike my Willard w a 55 to 75hp engine. But things in life are not always as we think they should be especially if one is trying to be basically or mostly an independent thinker. When I was looking for another boat last winter and when I looked at boats like 36' GB's and like boats I NEVER considered the twins because of the weight and fuel consumption. That's ironic in that it's the 36' singles that I had proclaimed to be bastard designs the year before. But if you consider twins and singles that have the same amount of power I'd say the twin is definitely the more desirable boat. To the extent that it's almost a dumb question.
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Old 11-25-2011, 12:31 PM   #6
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

There are so many issues that should be discussed ad nauseum from this picture, such as:

Twin vs. single
Diesel vs. gas (black soot exhaust)
Power vs Sail
Bow vs. stern anchoring
Pilot house vs. flybridge
All Chain vs Combo rode
Vertical vs. Horizontal tipping when painting
Contrasting color bottom paint vs matching color bottom paint
Boat name placement: Bow vs Sideboard

This one picture could keep us arguing all winter long!!
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Old 11-25-2011, 12:52 PM   #7
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twin vs. single engine rages on....

haha *..FlyWright I just settled the twin/single question so what do you think of gas v/s diesel?

ad nauseum ....wazzat?

Should'na said that. Do'nt mean to hijack the thread.*


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 25th of November 2011 01:54:07 PM
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Old 11-25-2011, 01:09 PM   #8
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twin vs. single engine rages on....

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
Another aspect of this is that in 1975 a 240hp trawler was quite appropriate marketing wise but now probably most would want a 120hp boat.
Then explain why just about every cruising boat--- at least semi-planing one which is what makes up the bulk of the production market these days--- has factory-fitted engines of 210, 300, 375, 425, etc. horsepower.* I don't think anyone in the market for this kind of boat considers 120 hp to even be viable anymore.*

Not saying it isn't--- your position on power is essentially correct I think.* But in terms of the market for new boats, despite the economic downturn, which for the most part has not severely impacted the people in the market for a new cruising boat, more power is still better and that's what the manufacturers are supplying.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 25th of November 2011 02:10:06 PM
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Old 11-25-2011, 01:50 PM   #9
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Boats are marketed for the 98 percent of boaters who don't know any better...* Boat stores are filled with things that are for the 98 percent who don't know any better....
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:19 PM   #10
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twin vs. single engine rages on....

Quote:
psneeld wrote:


Boats are marketed for the 98 percent of boaters who don't know any better...* Boat stores are filled with things that are for the 98 percent who don't know any better....


Hmmm. That explains why 98 percent of the crap I buy in the boat store 98 percent of the time is marked-up 98 percent. On the subject of twins vs. singles though, I feel secure with my single about 98 percent of the time, but if a deal on a diesel outboard came up (rare in the States), I might build a bracket for it when I do the loop or Bahamas. The few I've seen look a bit heavy for a dinghy.

-- Edited by healhustler on Friday 25th of November 2011 03:26:46 PM
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:42 PM   #11
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Marin,

That's easy to explain. How much do those boats you're talking about cost? Anybody that can afford to buy them can easily afford to pay for the fuel and builders are advertising "go fast - go slow". But all slow boats are good at only one speed if they are good at any speed. So as long as boats are sold to wealthy and ignorant people stupid boats will prevail. Nordic Tug could optimize their 32 for excellent fuel economy and good seaworthyness in following seas but they do'nt go there because they know that boat would have limited appeal. So it's marketing but once the boats get 30 yrs old and are in the hands of people that only make $50K a year the're really not suitable designs unless one only runs 50 hrs a year.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:08 PM   #12
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:So as long as boats are sold to wealthy and ignorant people stupid boats will prevail. Nordic Tug could optimize their 32 for excellent fuel economy and good seaworthyness in following seas but they do'nt go there because they know that boat would have limited appeal. So it's marketing but once the boats get 30 yrs old and are in the hands of people that only make $50K a year the're really not suitable designs unless one only runs 50 hrs a year.
All true except for one thing, and that is your assumption that new boat buyers are ignorant and stupid.* As we've discussed before, the people I've talked to in Bellingham who have bought new boats like GBs and Nordic Tugs with a lot of power did so for a very specific reason--- they wanted to be able to get to places like Desolation Sound in no more than a couple of days, then they wanted to be able to putz around up there at slow speeds for a week or two, and then they want to blow back to town in no more than a couple of days.* That's what their schedules allow and having a go-fast, go-slow boat permits them to enjoy the places they want to go in the time they have available to go there.

You are corrrect that when the value of the boat drops to the point where one of the 99% can afford it, they may not be able to afford the fuel bill, or afford to run the boat the way the original owner did because of the big engines.* But if I was a boat manufacturer, the number one thing I would be concerned with is selling that boat new to somebody, and the last thing I would* care about--- in fact I wouldn't care about it at all---* is what happens to that boat 30 years from now.

So you are applying a valid theory to people to whom your valid theory is irrelevant.* It doesn't mean they're ignorant* and stupid, it means they have totally different priorites in boating than you do.* And, from my observation, their reasons for what they do are every bit as valid as yours are to you.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:15 PM   #13
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Fighting the three-plus-knot ebb tidal current today in Mare Island Strait, I was only able to make 4.5 knots over the bottom while*making hull speed.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:30 PM   #14
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

I'm in a 30+ year old boat now . . . (with 52 hp). I guess I'll need to enroll in Singles Anonymous for recovery.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:51 PM   #15
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Quote:
Marin wrote:--- they wanted to be able to get to places like Desolation Sound in no more than a couple of days, then they wanted to be able to putz around up there at slow speeds for a week or two, and then they want to blow back to town in no more than a couple of days.
*That's pretty much my philosophy at present.

I get a real kick out of those who love the small engines in their boats. They are always talking about how little they burn at 6-7 knots. Here is my carefully calibrated table of what my Cummins 330B does with my 8 ton* boat. If I run it at 6-7 knots like some of you do, my fuel burn is way down.* I choose to run it at 2000rpm as that is where the engine is the happiest and according to BoatDiesel's prop calculator, if I change the prop I could go even faster!
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:49 PM   #16
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

As a former sailor, it doesn't seem natural to exceed hull speed.* Seems like cheating.
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:55 PM   #17
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Walt, if you don't exceed 1600 RPM, I'll be able to keep up with you.
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Old 11-25-2011, 10:12 PM   #18
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twin vs. single engine rages on....

Quote:
markpierce wrote:
As a former sailor, it doesn't seem natural to exceed hull speed.* Seems like cheating.
*Really?* To me it doesn't seem natural to go that slow across the water.* It seems like I'm being cheated.

30 mph vs 8 knots.* I'll take the photo on the left every time no matter what the boat size.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 25th of November 2011 11:12:36 PM
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Old 11-25-2011, 10:12 PM   #19
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Mark, for comparison, what's your fuel burn at 1600 RPM?
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Old 11-25-2011, 10:39 PM   #20
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RE: twin vs. single engine rages on....

Al, I estimate around 1.5 gallons per hours.
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