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Old 11-20-2011, 09:09 AM   #21
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

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koliver wrote:*I think they buy all that stuff just to show off their wallets,
*I hate those bastards!
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:14 AM   #22
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

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psneeld wrote:
On some of the bigger expresses (35-48 footers) that were using the 8.1 MPI gassers*also had such tiny rudders that single engine manuevering was all but impossible in tight quarters,
*Big rudders are good.
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:17 AM   #23
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

Unfortunately not on high speed boats...which to me now are any boat that can approach 10 knots!
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Old 11-20-2011, 10:43 AM   #24
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

Big rudders are good.

_________________________________

Articulating BIG rudders are even better.

Ron
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:48 PM   #25
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

I've been cruising for about six weeks now so I'm getting used to how my boat handles.* Our boat has a large flying bridge enclosure that acts like a sail.* Depending on the wind direction I drive and dock differently.* Backing in can be a very aggressive maneuver in the wrong wind.* I have twin screws and the only thing you can do is pivot off of a piling if you have big wind.* Then just scrape around.* I imagine a single screw would do it the same, but most of the boats I see have bow thrusters.* I am still learning but I haven't crashed yet.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:08 PM   #26
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

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Egregious wrote:
I've been cruising for about six weeks now so I'm getting used to how my boat handles.* Our boat has a large flying bridge enclosure that acts like a sail.* Depending on the wind direction I drive and dock differently.* Backing in can be a very aggressive maneuver in the wrong wind.* I have twin screws and the only thing you can do is pivot off of a piling if you have big wind.* Then just scrape around.* I imagine a single screw would do it the same, but most of the boats I see have bow thrusters.* I am still learning but I haven't crashed yet.
*Thanks for the info Guys. Egregious, great looking boat. And yes, you have a lot of sail area.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:49 PM   #27
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

I watched a guy with twins. A 36 bayliner. Backing into his slip. The wind blew him into the corner of the finger. Took out his trim tab on the starboard side.

He had water coming in. I grabbed a screw gun and filled the holes with a few screws. (Temporary Fix)

The wind can be a real Bitch.

SD*
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:27 PM   #28
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

We have a 38' Californian, and yes she is fairly flat bottomed and have a large "sail" pilothouse / flybridge.

She has twin diesels and no thrusters.. in windy conditions in can be a real bitch to get in between two fingers, especially if there is also a tidal current (isnt there always?).
But you can do a lot with twins, fairly easily which would take much more skill to do with a single.
That being said, sometimes less is more... so if you only have to learn how the boat reacts to a single, you can keep it faily simple (forward/reverse and each port/sb direction VS 4 times as many configurations with a twin).

but if you really really know how to steer your twins, i believe you can do almost anything in mostly any conditions, even some maneuvers not possible in a single.

A new friend of ours is a Captain of a 70' pleasure yacht, he gave me following advise:
go slow, you never want much momentum. pretend you want to go in slow motion. the guys going into a slip with momentum and then reversing to avoid a crash will sooner or later run into the slip and with momentum it will make more than dents.

and remember the boat is headed one direction but often pointed in a different direction (unless you are in a sailboat).

take some lessons from a seasoned twin skipper and practice practice practice.
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:13 PM   #29
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

Eventually, you will learn how to work with the wind. Until then, a single with a bow thruster should be almost as good as twins and you should not have a problem.
The bow thruster will be your "equalizer" in that what you lack in experience, the thruster will make up in maneuverability. If you have twins and you still need a bow thruster, well then ....never mind..... make like I didn't bring that up. LOL

BTW, keep in mind that whenever you fight the wind or current, you will always lose. You have to learn to work with it and use it to your advantage.
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:16 PM   #30
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

We had Riviera SFs (2) with twins and no thruster. Backing in with the wind on the bow was always a challenge as I never knew which way the bow was going to blow off. We once hit the yacht next door and folded a couple of stanchions. After that, in a real blow we*drove in bow first and turned the boat around on another day*- when there was less wind.

We have a friend with an similar SF (twins) with bow-thruster, and it's not that much of an improvement because he's going like a one-armed paperhanger (with fleas) with so many controls to deal with, and once the wind gets hold of the bow, it still goes sideways anyway.

We now have a single prop with 10hp hydraulic bow-thruster and an aft steering station.*This boat is by far the easiest to manage of*any we've had despite being the largest (53ft). I happily take it to the fuel wharf or even out fishing on my own and never have any problem getting back into the slip. The aft station is the key, because I can reverse in and reach the stern lines with a boat-hook from this station.
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Old 11-21-2011, 05:08 PM   #31
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

Quote:
Per wrote:

... A new friend of ours is a Captain of a 70' pleasure yacht, he gave me following advise:
go slow, you never want much momentum. pretend you want to go in slow motion. the guys going into a slip with momentum and then reversing to avoid a crash will sooner or later run into the slip and with momentum it will make more than dents.

Is there agreement on this point?* My bias was to go slow, but that seems to get me in trouble because there's not enough rudder effect, and there's more time for the wind cause problems.* I dock a bit faster these days and usually don't need to touch the thruster.
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Old 11-21-2011, 05:17 PM   #32
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

My first powerboat,semi displacement, had a single Perkins. Understand prop walk and some other things and you do a lot with it. I got a half day tuition with an experienced skipper on board and Bob Sweet`s book "Powerboat Handling",both a great help.

Our Island Gypsy 36 with twin FLs,no thrusters, is much easier to handle but I still use techniques learnt out of necessity on the single. Even so,go for twin diesels if you can, but windage will always be an issue in tight areas.

We know people with a Banks 52 which has a computer coordinating engines and thrusters. Move the joystick, it does the rest!

Our local Maritime Authority encourages being able to operate without thrusters,just in case. Around the bays you see some boats rely excessively on thrusters, instead of using engine and rudder techniques.

BruceK IG36 "Doriana"

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Old 11-21-2011, 05:22 PM   #33
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Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

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bobc wrote:Per wrote:

... A new friend of ours is a Captain of a 70' pleasure yacht, he gave me following advise:
go slow,
Is there agreement on this point?*

*No.* It will depend on the boat.* But I see WAY more boaters, single or twin, get into trouble because they are going too slow than boaters who get into trouble by going too fast (within reason).* Too slow and you lose steerage and when that happens you're at the mercy of the wind or current.

We used to run the boat very slowly in maneuvers.* After getting blown around a bunch and then*getting acquainted with some very experienced boat handlers who gave us the benefit of their advice*we don't do that anymore.* We keep some speed on even into the slip.* The boat responds better to rudder, and we have no problem stopping or shoving the stern one way or the other with the props.

An extreme example of the problems of too slow was told to me by a WWII PT skipper.* The boats, particulary the Elcos, had tiny little rudders that were all but useless at slow speeds.* So the skippers learned to drive them fast, even right up to the dock or to*their raft of boats.* By fast I mean moving along at 10 or 15 mph or even faster.* At that speed the rudders were at least somewhat responsive.* (All the props on a PT turned the same way so opposing thrust wasn't as productive as one might have hoped).* But roaring into the base and up to the dock or raft was the norm.* The boats were stopped by a huge blast of reverse on all three.* The only time anyone had problems is if the transmissions refused to shift :-)


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 21st of November 2011 06:23:51 PM
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:57 AM   #34
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

The best is to find an easier place to dock and/or wait for the wind to die down.* Many bigger boats tend to know/follow the weather, how/when the winds blow and use to their advantage.* In the Puget Sound, during the summer warmer months the thermal wind blows from the North West, in land off the sound between 10:00 AM and 7:00PM.* In the winter it blows from the south west all day, but windows between storms.* So wait for the window and/or use the wind to your advantage. *
*
The approach direction of the direction the boat is facing many times can make a difference.* Many times I will turn the boat around to make it easier to leave the dock when the wind is calm so maneuvering is kept to a minimum.* Also many time going bow first when conditions are not favorable and then turning the boat around stern first when the conditions improve.
*
Lastly have the lines/fenders set before entering the marina, and call ahead to have assistance at the dock.* Make sure you crew/helpers know/understand what you indented plans are and what they are support to due.* Its the crew many times that make the captain look good, even when you mess it up.* *Most marinas will give assistance if you request.**I*usually ask for dock assitance as its better to have then not to have.*
*
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:23 AM   #35
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

I feel going idle in gear forward is typically too fast.
What i do is initially come in to my fairway both in idle gear forward, from there i start slowing down, by alternating (as needed) one engine in gear forward almost just used now for steering since boat still has lots of momentum, if i need higher rate of turn, i will kick opposing into reverse and typically i come into the slip so quietly i dont need any reverse to stop it.
I do know that I need to better learn how to work with the wind and current, part of that is also predicting how the wind/current will affect the docking.
I dont have a big problem going out by myself, though if the wind is really bad I will typically wait it out or not go out that day.

I have yet to put the boat in stern first, what is the technique and advantage here?
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:30 AM   #36
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

Quote:
Marin wrote:
An extreme example of the problems of too slow was told to me by a WWII PT skipper.* The boats, particulary the Elcos, had tiny little rudders that were all but useless at slow speeds.* So the skippers learned to drive them fast, even right up to the dock or to*their raft of boats.* By fast I mean moving along at 10 or 15 mph or even faster.* At that speed the rudders were at least somewhat responsive.* (All the props on a PT turned the same way so opposing thrust wasn't as productive as one might have hoped).* But roaring into the base and up to the dock or raft was the norm.* The boats were stopped by a huge blast of reverse on all three.* The only time anyone had problems is if the transmissions refused to shift :-)
*Perhaps that explains one scene on the movie "PT-109" (Kennedy's boat).
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:01 PM   #37
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

Quote:
Per wrote:I have yet to put the boat in stern first, what is the technique and advantage here?
*Stern-first in the slip can offer advantages to some boats.* Sometimes owners like to do it to put their cabin door on the same side as their finger float.* Sometimes* a boat is easier to board from the stern or swimstep and it would not be as convenient if the stern was clear out at the end of their finger or even slightly past it.* Sometimes it's advantageous to face the boat a certain way into the prevailing weather and depending on the slip location, backing into the slip may be the only way to face the boat in that direction.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:31 PM   #38
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Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

Quote:
Per wrote:

I feel going idle in gear forward is typically too fast.
What i do is initially come in to my fairway both in idle gear forward, from there i start slowing down, by alternating (as needed) one engine in gear forward almost just used now for steering since boat still has lots of momentum, if i need higher rate of turn, i will kick opposing into reverse and typically i come into the slip so quietly i dont need any reverse to stop it.
I do know that I need to better learn how to work with the wind and current, part of that is also predicting how the wind/current will affect the docking.
I dont have a big problem going out by myself, though if the wind is really bad I will typically wait it out or not go out that day.

I have yet to put the boat in stern first, what is the technique and advantage here?




*It's hard to explain how a technique works in your particular situation...especially if you have different direction current and winds.

It's better to learn how your boat handles...then apply whatever technique fits the set of environmental conditions you are facing.

A good boat handler is worth paying to show you the first couple of times...shouldn't cost more than repairing a good ding!* Me I charge around 50-100 depending if its 2-4 hrs.* A good boat handler may not be a good instructor or knw much about boating...but in this case that's not what you are paying for...heck some 15 yr olds handle boats better than many long time boaters I know.


-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 22nd of November 2011 02:34:22 PM
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:51 PM   #39
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

Per said "the guys going into a slip with momentum and then reversing to avoid a crash will sooner or later run into the slip and with momentum it will make more than dents."

They call that a "Hard Landing"
to be avoided.

Per also asked about reversinginto the slip:

With twins, all of your steering control is at the stern. Once the stern is confined by the slip, a finger float on one side and another boat or slip on the other, you lose all of that steerage and now only control your speed. Meanwhile, the bow is subject to outside forces, wind and current, so will go where pushed. Backing in with twins, no thruster, must be done very quickly, if there are sufficient outside forces acting on the bow to upset your plans.

I end up backing into my shelter on average a couple of times a year. the opening is 2 ft wider than the stern of my boat. A miss by only an inch would be costly. If there is currect or wind, or both, the technique is to get lined up, upwind/upcurrent, and drift down on the opening, getting within a foot or so, and when clear, apply enough reverse power to get inside before the bow falls off. the same technique will get you into an open slip, which should have more room for error.
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:14 PM   #40
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RE: Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

How true! I can back our Californian 34 into our shared slip about 1/2 way before the bow starts to swing toward the neighboring boat. Unless we have people on the dock toi catch lines, it goes downhill from there.. Pigheadedness usually leads me to keep trying to back in, as opposed to running bow in & then turning it around on a calmer day. Another educational set of postings that will make our dockings better next season. Thanks all. Have a great Thanksgiving.
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