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Old 05-14-2013, 10:20 AM   #81
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Our IPS 42 footers sell new for $600k complete and used in the mid $300s. So ALL pod boats are not tremendously expensive. These prices are competitive with a similar sized single screw tug-style yacht.
And you are as guilty as Marin for your comparison. "Single screw tug-style yachts" are the upper limit for single screw boats.

I'll agree with Moonstruck on this one. Pods are just too "elaborate" for me. There is also a little bit of pride and satisfaction in developing a plan to operate your boat and then successfully executing that plan...ie docking your boat in challenging situations. I have just come from my boat in my avatar...single with bow thruster. And am now in the process of buying my first twin engined boat..........should be a lotta fun!!!!
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:03 AM   #82
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Nothing wrong with those Tolly numbers - but that's for 34 footer - not a 40 plus footer.

I'm talking about heading south on the Jersey coast into 25 knots plus wind and 6 footers all the way from NYC to Cape May. I'd rather tough it out at 15 than at 7 or 8.

In the same weather, turning north in Delaware Bay, with 4 footers, we speed up to 21 or 25 knots. Very exciting passages.

The reason we tend to cruise this way is not for fun - it's on a schedule to get from one boat show in CT to the next in MD. I advocate staying out of nasty seas entirely - and with a retired owner, not on a schedule, one can choose his windows for open water (I'm talking coast wise, of course, not blue water passage making).
rjtrane -

Nice pict, but, in all due respect, those do not look like 6' waves at 15 knots... 2.5' to 3' maybe?? For 25 years I was brought up on New England coastal travel... NY to Canada. Been in just about every harbor more than once. 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s... before weather predictions of recent times were available... I’ve seen storms similar to the beginnings of Nor’easters suddenly arise while off shore with some real nasty waves cropping up that we had to fight as we headed to a port. Twice weathered hurricanes in harbors, on the hook with motor running to reduce drag on the anchor; Dering Harbor and Boston Harbor. One of our favorite boats was a stout 38’ raised deck semi planing hull sport fisher. Cruise was 12 to 13 knots, WOT 15 to 16. I can well remember the speeds we did in 6’ and even taller “chop-whitecap” waves (not rollers – they are basically no problem)... it was about 7 knots, simply because faster than that into 6’ or taller “chop-waves” would beat a 38 to 40’ boat to death, not to mention the crew.

That said: I’m certain you have a VERY lively experiences at the speeds you mention, for length of time you continue, and into the waves/wind you encounter. Enjoy your every cruise... biz wise or playtime... boats are cool!
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:14 AM   #83
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And you are as guilty as Marin for your comparison. "Single screw tug-style yachts" are the upper limit for single screw boats.

I'll agree with Moonstruck on this one. Pods are just too "elaborate" for me. There is also a little bit of pride and satisfaction in developing a plan to operate your boat and then successfully executing that plan...ie docking your boat in challenging situations. I have just come from my boat in my avatar...single with bow thruster. And am now in the process of buying my first twin engined boat..........should be a lotta fun!!!!
Twins!!! - Yeah Baby!!

You will have equivalent of a waterborne full-track tractor at your command. With a little "fun-time" practice twin screw boat can be made to perform elaborate maneuvers... especially at slow speeds, like when docking! Enjoy!! What make/type boat with twins are you getting??
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:25 AM   #84
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[QUOTE=Moonstruck;156313
I still can't understand the need and expense of pod drives. The Bahama coral heads could be devastating to pods. High torque twin screws will put a direct drive boat where you want it. If you need more help add a thruster or two. A lot cheaper and less complicated. How do you retrieve a snapped off pod in a remote area? For that matter, how do you find it? I'm very happy with my mechanically injected straight drives. I guess I'm a neanderthal, and doomed to the dark ages forever.l[/QUOTE]

Agreed! Neanderthals - Unite!!

If I may say so... Actually – single screw straight drive lovers are the Neanderthals / We twin screw lovers are Cro-Magnons. Does that make Pod Drive lovers from Mars??? Just wonderen - LOL
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Old 05-14-2013, 03:12 PM   #85
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What make/type boat with twins are you getting??[/FONT][/COLOR]
Carver 356 with twin 370hp Cummins 6BTAs...the deal is not sealed yet but just might get there by the end of the week.
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:35 PM   #86
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And you are as guilty as Marin for your comparison. "Single screw tug-style yachts" are the upper limit for single screw boats.

I'll agree with Moonstruck on this one. Pods are just too "elaborate" for me. There is also a little bit of pride and satisfaction in developing a plan to operate your boat and then successfully executing that plan...ie docking your boat in challenging situations. I have just come from my boat in my avatar...single with bow thruster. And am now in the process of buying my first twin engined boat..........should be a lotta fun!!!!
I must not have been clear in my comparison to single screw tug style yachts - i was ONLY comparing pricing - "out the door" pricing for a similar-sized, similarly equipped yacht - yes they aren't the same - the tug is single screw and the pods are always two or more motors, four or more screws.

Is the pod more elaborate than you slant shaft with stuffing box, cutlass bearing and single propeller? Yes. But maybe not when you add in a hydraulic steering system with rudder, helm pump(s), hoses and fittings and autopilot pump. Or add in bow thruster with its dedicated battery. Or add in a stern thruster. Pods are fly by wire - with essentially CAT5 wires running from the helm(s) to the motors. No rudders. No place for water to leak. No exhaust system (built in). No water intake(s) (built in). No alignment issues. No leaking stuffing box. No above water exhaust. No motor under the accommodation (out aft, easy to service - noise is outside the boat).

Oh, and the availability of multiple joysticks for easier docking.

No, they're not for everyone - but for certain types of cruising, they function quite well.
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:45 PM   #87
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rjtrane -

Nice pict, but, in all due respect, those do not look like 6' waves at 15 knots... 2.5' to 3' maybe?? For 25 years I was brought up on New England coastal travel... NY to Canada. Been in just about every harbor more than once. 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s... before weather predictions of recent times were available... I’ve seen storms similar to the beginnings of Nor’easters suddenly arise while off shore with some real nasty waves cropping up that we had to fight as we headed to a port. Twice weathered hurricanes in harbors, on the hook with motor running to reduce drag on the anchor; Dering Harbor and Boston Harbor. One of our favorite boats was a stout 38’ raised deck semi planing hull sport fisher. Cruise was 12 to 13 knots, WOT 15 to 16. I can well remember the speeds we did in 6’ and even taller “chop-whitecap” waves (not rollers – they are basically no problem)... it was about 7 knots, simply because faster than that into 6’ or taller “chop-waves” would beat a 38 to 40’ boat to death, not to mention the crew.

That said: I’m certain you have a VERY lively experiences at the speeds you mention, for length of time you continue, and into the waves/wind you encounter. Enjoy your every cruise... biz wise or playtime... boats are cool!
I apologize for giving the impression that the photo was taken in 6 footers - of course, they are much smaller seas - I'm not about to be hanging on taking photos in 6 footers on the nose. And I agree, that 7 knots is a lot more comfortable in those types of seas. Staying in port is even more comfortable. But, when moving a boat on a schedule, we tend to encounter less than pleasurable days but as long as it's safe, we go. Many times down the Jersey coast or in the Chesapeake, we've motored on while Nordhavns have stayed in port - obviously, they had no need to get somewhere on a schedule and wisely stayed in port.

I think we were actually going around 25 knots when that photo was taken, not 15. Sorry again for the misunderstanding.

BTW, we seem to have very similar boating experience starting in the 50s from Nova Scotia to the Bahamas. I remember a trip in the fog from Halifax to Maine navigating with a compass, a good watch and a Walker taff-rail log. We lost sight of land within an hour of leaving Halifax and made our landfall several days later at Mantinicus right on the money. I think all of us boaters who make it to our age has one or more war stories to tell.
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:02 PM   #88
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.

Is the pod more elaborate than you slant shaft with stuffing box, cutlass bearing and single propeller? Yes. But maybe not when you add in a hydraulic steering system with rudder, helm pump(s), hoses and fittings and autopilot pump. Or add in bow thruster with its dedicated battery. Or add in a stern thruster. Pods are fly by wire - with essentially CAT5 wires running from the helm(s) to the motors. No rudders. No place for water to leak. No exhaust system (built in). No water intake(s) (built in). No alignment issues. No leaking stuffing box. No above water exhaust. No motor under the accommodation (out aft, easy to service - noise is outside the boat).

This is why I think manufacturers like pods. It simplifies the installation. No pesky engine alignment problems. Fewer hook ups and plumbing to run. Then after saving the labor and time get to charge more and mark up the whole package. Not a bad deal for them at all. Pretty smart really. Get paid more for less work. Now, why didn't I think of that.

I think dealers love them because after seeing them demonstrated, everyone thinks they can be an instant captain. It takes the intimidation factor out of the equation. They are a win/win for the dealer and manufacturer.
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:13 PM   #89
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Carver 356 with twin 370hp Cummins 6BTAs...the deal is not sealed yet but just might get there by the end of the week.
Good luck
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:16 PM   #90
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I still can't understand the need and expense of pod drives. The Bahama coral heads could be devastating to pods. High torque twin screws will put a direct drive boat where you want it. If you need more help add a thruster or two. A lot cheaper and less complicated. How do you retrieve a snapped off pod in a remote area? For that matter, how do you find it? I'm very happy with my mechanically injected straight drives. I guess I'm a neanderthal, and doomed to the dark ages forever.l
I agree, there is no "need" for pods. Just as there is no need for pleasure yachts. But they sure are nice in tight situations - keeps the yelling to a minimum - likewise, divorces.

The Bahama coral heads are not meant to be run onto at speed. Not even slow speed. Thus the reason for charts and now, GPS. But, should you make a mistake and get off course, these coral heads can be just as devastating to twins - actually can be more so.

I've whacked a submerged timber in NY harbor at 25 knots - significant vibration over 8 knots so we limped to Essex CT and hauled out. We'd bent two starboard props and the shaft. Two days later and a total of 4 man-hours the props and shaft were replaced and we were back in the water. If we'd had any "normal" twin slant shafts with exposed props, struts and rudders, most likely the damage would have included a bent shaft along with prop and rudder damage. Could have been weeks and many more dollars to effect that repair.

A snapped off pod sinks to the bottom - in deep water, you're not going to recover it. In shallow water, your MOB way point will direct a diver to retrieve it. A new pod and props can arrive by air freight within a couple of days - and no more than 8 hours of labor and you're back underway. It's between you and your insurance coverage to determine your out of pocket costs - most likely your deductible only. Very few pods sheer off in reality.

I know you feel it's hard to justify cost of pods - but, from your avatar, it looks like you're driving an East Bay? If you were buying that boat today, most likely she'd come fitted with pods. If you drive faster than displacement speeds, pods save you about 25-30% in fuel. That's due to the increase in performance that lets you use less HP to go at planing speeds. Plus, in new construction (there are virtually no retrofits with pods), you eliminate so many other systems, actually simplifying your life.

As fuel continues to be an issue, as are emissions, we are doomed to the future - mechanical diesels giving way to more efficient, smoother running, quieter, non-polluting, electronically-controlled ones - and pods for the faster boats. Each year, more boat manufacturers are either offering pods as options or making them standard - All of Sabre Yachts' new models have pods - as do the new Grand Banks (Gasp!) and East Bays. Think of it as automatic transmissions in cars - in the 50s we all loved double-shifting our non-syncro transmissions into first w/o stopping - we swore we'd never own a car with a hydroglide transmission. Ditto, power windows. Now, it's hard to find a car with a manual and I haven't seen roll up windows in years. Heck, they all have blue tooth, too.

If you're into faster cruising yachts, you may wish take a ride on a pod boat AND you just might enjoy it? (Just make sure none of your friends see you smiling!)
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:23 PM   #91
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Moonstruck,

My bad! I mistook your gorgeous Sabre for an East Bay! I apologize profusely!
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:28 PM   #92
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Reuben, your right. It's a Sabre, but Sabre is going more and more to the pod drives. I have ridden and driven pod boats. To me there is no problem maneuvering my boat or any boat I've had in close quarters. That is when I think pods are most valuable. I have not seen in numbers the claimed extra efficiency. The economy of my boat at speed works out quiet favorably with pods. Of course there are charts, and everyone should be careful. However, they don't call them accidents for nothing. I've got to talk to Eric about insurers charging us extra because others have pods. We don't want to pay for that doe we Eric?
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:09 PM   #93
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<<Of course, you've picked one of the most expensive pod boats to support your position, a Grand Banks.>>

The picked the most expensive pod boat to support his position...and you picked the most expensive SE boat to support yours. That was my only point. Tug style boats are EXPENSIVE....regardless of the reason.

And thanks for listing all of those points. All very relevant and something I did not think about. And I do realize they are more efficient but I have to be honest in saying I have a hard time believing they are 25-30% more so? The automatic transmission pretty much displaced the manual transmissions. I don't think pods will do that to the conventional setups of today??

PS...I used to custom order my cars with manual transmissions and rollup windows.Whenever it came time to sell them, it was always to somebody well over 60 and they were tickled pink to find such a creature in this day and age.
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:20 PM   #94
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Carver 356 with twin 370hp Cummins 6BTAs...the deal is not sealed yet but just might get there by the end of the week.
U B Cool!!

Yow, 370 hp twins... Is that a freaking Speed Boat??!!!!
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:57 PM   #95
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BTW, we seem to have very similar boating experience starting in the 50s from Nova Scotia to the Bahamas. I remember a trip in the fog from Halifax to Maine navigating with a compass, a good watch and a Walker taff-rail log. We lost sight of land within an hour of leaving Halifax and made our landfall several days later at Mantinicus right on the money. I think all of us boaters who make it to our age has one or more war stories to tell.
rj - Yes, we do seem to have similar experiences. Compass, time piece, knowing boat's speed, and a chart have for decades been my best friends... still are for serious cruising. I recall Loran becoming available to general boating community... used it back in the day to check on our chart calcs. Now you can look at a screen and see where you are, speed traveling, and how long you have to go, as well as how many and what type of fish is underneath ya. Get the special model with personal aps and it will even tell you if the Admiral’s feeling frisky... ya sure... wink of the eye is best!

Regarding Pods. I like their concept and think they will eventually fill a large portion of the market. I do however have certain reservations and before owning a pod boat the pods will need some years of proof-in-the-putting. Time marches on! Even for Don “Moonstruck” and me!
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:01 PM   #96
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<<Of course, you've picked one of the most expensive pod boats to support your position, a Grand Banks.>>

The picked the most expensive pod boat to support his position...and you picked the most expensive SE boat to support yours. That was my only point. Tug style boats are EXPENSIVE....regardless of the reason.

And thanks for listing all of those points. All very relevant and something I did not think about. And I do realize they are more efficient but I have to be honest in saying I have a hard time believing they are 25-30% more so? The automatic transmission pretty much displaced the manual transmissions. I don't think pods will do that to the conventional setups of today??

PS...I used to custom order my cars with manual transmissions and rollup windows.Whenever it came time to sell them, it was always to somebody well over 60 and they were tickled pink to find such a creature in this day and age.

You used to order cars with standard transmissions? What made you stop?

Actually I could have picked ANY high-end forty footer. None that I know of sell for less than half a million or so? Not the Beneteau Swift. Nor the Marlows? How about the Fleming 34' Corvette? One of the participants In this thread must have the time to compile a list of prices for new 40 something new boats?

I'll see if I can track down some of the side by side sea trials of same boats with different power trains? I do know that using the same HP as the Beneteau Swift, the IP435 cruises at 28 knots while the Beneteau Swift cruises at 21 knots. Same GPH. Same LOA and beam. Very similar displacements and LWL. Same brand and model motors. BTW, the IPS is a bit better efficiency-wise than the Zeus.

We have swapped out a pod drive motor in 8 hours. Hard to do with motors under the saloon sole.

I know all the old timers here pride themselves on their boat handling skills developed over a lifetime of yachting. I'm proud of mine, too. When I lived aboard a 45 foot ketch at Dinner Key I used to sail into my slip never starting the diesel. For most of her life, my 25' Bolger Black Skimmer never even had a motor on board - I'd sail off and back into my mooring at Coconut Grove Sailing Club.

But, in less than ideal conditions, I certainly prefer docking a pod boat than a single or normal twin. And you really can't beat the station keeping ability.

I never expect to convince any if you. Pluto asked earlier for ALL of our opinions based on our experiences. Once he mentioned the Great Loop I chose to share mine since that trip has more maneuvering, docking and locking than many boaters experience in a lifetime. Had Pluto a tenth of our experience, he wouldn't have asked the question because he would have already formed his own opinions.

I'm glad to have the chance to air mine.
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Old 05-15-2013, 10:21 AM   #97
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You used to order cars with standard transmissions? What made you stop?



I'm glad to have the chance to air mine.
Kinda like getting a dirt house....I moved off of the boat and bought a dirt house....just because. Same thing goes with the auto transmission. I got one just because! And the trim level of Toyota truck I wanted didn't offer the manual... I do still prefer the manual.

And I am glad you have aired your opinion as well. I have been closed minded to pods strictly because of their expense and complexity. And also, that is a very expensive chunk of metal hanging out there in the "breeze". Anyway, you have opened my mind a bit and have given me something to think about!
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:40 AM   #98
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It is my feeling that by now virtually all production yachts in sizes and quality that would benefit by the installation of pods would have done so by now. Unfortunately for boat building business, the current economic downturn has kept many builders from adopting pods and making the necessary investment in engineering and tooling to do so.

Moonstruck says above that they're a win/win for builders and dealers. I add, that they're a win for the end users, also - especially those newbies buying their first big boat.

We stayed away from installing pods until more than a year from their introduction had gone by and over 1,000 units were in service around the world. In fact, it was totally customer-driven, our buyers started insisting on IPS pods. None or our owners that I know of has regretted owning a pod-propelled cruising yacht.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:07 PM   #99
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It is my feeling that by now virtually all production yachts in sizes and quality that would benefit by the installation of pods would have done so by now. Unfortunately for boat building business, the current economic downturn has kept many builders from adopting pods and making the necessary investment in engineering and tooling to do so.

Moonstruck says above that they're a win/win for builders and dealers. I add, that they're a win for the end users, also - especially those newbies buying their first big boat.

We stayed away from installing pods until more than a year from their introduction had gone by and over 1,000 units were in service around the world. In fact, it was totally customer-driven, our buyers started insisting on IPS pods. None or our owners that I know of has regretted owning a pod-propelled cruising yacht.
Approx - How many Pods in service at this time and what is the industry projection for mfg of Pods this year?

Also - what type of complication exists for inclusion of Pods during repower of a "classic" cruiser... i.e. a used boat?

And - how many Pods do you know of that have either failed of their own volition and/or been ruined or lost due to collision with dead heads or due to groundings.

In addition - do Pods increase the draft of a boat in comparison to straight drive or out drive... if so by how much?

Thanks, Art
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:10 PM   #100
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Fly by wire has many advantages so I would love to have pod drives. When the day comes I can afford them, I'll get them. Perhaps that sums up the feeling of many on TF.
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