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Old 03-05-2013, 01:31 PM   #41
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But it turns out the real problem each and every time has been that some where some how gasoline has been introduced into the system by mistake.
That is a fascinating story.

I had one of the first TDIs and ran it till it literally wore out after over a quarter million miles of Montana, Idaho, and Washington driving. It still had the original turbo and fuel pump ... but to be honest the turbo was beyond contributing much when it finally went to the junkyard.

I burned over a thousand gallons of Jet-A in that thing too without any problem. I just didn't burn it exclusively so lack of lubricity was never a factor. But, no matter how cold it got - and the Bitterroot Valley got really cold - I never considered adding gasoline, or any other magic sauce - it just isn't necessary.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:40 PM   #42
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Greetings,
Mr. Rick B. Shouldn't you be burning Jet-A in a Jetta?
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:47 PM   #43
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Greetings,
Mr. Rick B. Shouldn't you be burning Jet-A in a Jetta?
I thought that was why they put that sticker on it ... I just couldn't figure out why they put 2 Ts in Jet ...
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:49 PM   #44
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Greetings,
Mr. Rick B. Shouldn't you be burning Jet-A in a Jetta?
We do you caught me.

Just kidding. I don't need the NCHP at my door.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:00 AM   #45
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no matter how cold it got - and the Bitterroot Valley got really cold - I never considered adding gasoline, or any other magic sauce - it just isn't necessary.

However Da Book on my 82 Diesel Rabbit explained the use of up to 10% gasoline to assist in cold weather.

Just a glow plug mechanical engine, nothing fancy.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:10 AM   #46
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However Da Book on my 82 Diesel Rabbit explained the use of up to 10% gasoline to assist in cold weather..
Some people assume that that advice would automatically carry over to a marine diesel engine of a different brand. That's how some of the "stupid boating tricks" get started.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:18 AM   #47
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no matter how cold it got - and the Bitterroot Valley got really cold - I never considered adding gasoline, or any other magic sauce - it just isn't necessary.

However Da Book on my 82 Diesel Rabbit explained the use of up to 10% gasoline to assist in cold weather.

Just a glow plug mechanical engine, nothing fancy.
But that engine had a mechanical fuel injection pump not an electrical high pressure pump like the TDI. Also the pump is not the same on early TDIs. This just started since the 2009 version TDI that meets the new EPA specs. The problem was thought to be the material used in the high pressure pumps so Bosch jumped up with several mods. But when the dust settled it was gas that had been introduced into the fuel and that is what caused the problem.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:31 AM   #48
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Jet A in a Jetta .. I love that and several of JDs posts (especially #37) has been very interesting. #37 took me WAY back w the Saab and DKW 2 stroke cars. JD do you remember the Javelin Jupiter? Sure glad somebody started this thread.

In the old days common sense usually was able to keep you on track but now things are so complicated more often look'in at da book has better advice. But common sense should tell us that the diesel fuel available at the pump should be just fine and not need ATF or any other additives to perform well in our engines. I've never put anything but BioBore and StaBill in my diesel and to my knowledge never had a problem.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:24 AM   #49
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But that engine had a mechanical fuel injection pump not an electrical high pressure pump like the TDI. Also the pump is not the same on early TDIs. This just started since the 2009 version TDI that meets the new EPA specs. The problem was thought to be the material used in the high pressure pumps so Bosch jumped up with several mods. But when the dust settled it was gas that had been introduced into the fuel and that is what caused the problem.
Those were Bosch "VE" style injection pumps. Those pumps were also used on some of the early Volvo marine diesels. They were also used on the 89-93 Dodge Cummins trucks.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:48 AM   #50
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"So anything lingering in the pipe is sent on with the next product. In gas it isn't' a problem high test to reg or mid range all mix OK. Diesel into gas is not a problem but some time gas into diesel can be. Just depends on how much is there. Vinny"

Years ago, while representing a fuel supplier in court I was shocked to learn that the allowable tolerance for cross-contamination in the tanks was 10%. That was not for the various grades of gasoline, but for diesel - gas.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:57 AM   #51
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And lest anyone forget Diesel Power 101, lesson #1; Diesel fuel is rated by its ability to rapidly "self ignite" in the combustion chamber. That characteristic is called "ignition delay." It is a measure of the length of time between start of injection and start of combustion. That characteristic is described by its "cetane rating." A high cetane rating equates to a rapid onset of combustion. Good diesel fuel ignites very quickly.

Gasoline is by design really hard to ignite in the conditions found in the combustion chamber of a diesel engine. Octane and cetane ratings are diametric opposites ... we want diesel to ignite rapidly in hot compressed air, we do not want gasoline to do that. A high octane rating means the gasoline is highly resistant to igniting from heat of compression alone.

So, gasoline is there to thin out the diesel when its cold - thin diesel in a hot pump isn't a good thing.

Another issue, which should interest those with a strong aversion to gasoliine powered inboards because of the fire and explosion risks, is the fact that mixing gasoline with diesel in a 1 percent mix (1 gallon of gas in 100 gallons of diesel) will lower the flashpoint from 100F (for onroad diesel that most recreational marinas sell) to 68F. That makes the diesel just as fire and explosion prone as gasoline in your non ignition protected and non bilge vented diesel engine room. Think about that one for a while.
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Old 03-06-2013, 03:40 PM   #52
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"So anything lingering in the pipe is sent on with the next product. In gas it isn't' a problem high test to reg or mid range all mix OK. Diesel into gas is not a problem but some time gas into diesel can be. Just depends on how much is there. Vinny"

Years ago, while representing a fuel supplier in court I was shocked to learn that the allowable tolerance for cross-contamination in the tanks was 10%. That was not for the various grades of gasoline, but for diesel - gas.
I read someplace when researching this particular problem that this is not the case in Europe. VW said that the lines from the various tanks run down to the pump directly from each tank and the pump is right at the tank car / truck fill. So in effect the cross contamination is non existent in Europe. But it turned out to be contamination in this country plain and simple. There was one case where the truck driver had dumped a 500 Gal compartment of gas into the service stations diesel tanks by accident.
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:24 PM   #53
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Many fleets & farmers have been adding filtered waste engine oil to their fuel for decades with no ill effects. I would not be so sure this is a bad idea.
Many people did that in the past with the old mechanical engines. It was a simple method of "disposing" of the used oil..... Nowadays, I don't think it would be wise to get caught doing so... EPA would freak out over it. If you are running one of the newer engines with an ECM....you could very well damage the engine...or at a minimum cause a complete protective shutdown, then you have a mess on your hands emptying a fuel tank and everything up the injectors and sensors....

Personally....the only thing I will put in my diesel tank is "diesel"....unless its an approved formula that will improve the engine's performance or protect the fuel....from bugs, etc...
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:54 PM   #54
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Jet A in a Jetta .. I love that and several of JDs posts (especially #37) has been very interesting. #37 took me WAY back w the Saab and DKW 2 stroke cars. JD do you remember the Javelin Jupiter? Sure glad somebody started this thread.
Sorry to say I missed ever seeing or working on that car. I went on line to see some of the pictures and in ti's race pictures it looks like it cornered like a TR-2. The car looks a bit like a TR. But a boxer engine. I never knew the Brits to have such leanings and water cooled at that.

I did have a DKW Junior Wagon. Had it as a winter driver so that my Porsche could stay in the garage when there was ice and snow on the road. Loved the roller bearing cranks in these engines. The early Porsche race engines as in the 1300 Spider Super and the 1600 Spider Super had roller bearing cranks as well. The only thing that kept these engines from turning 9 - 10k was they couldn't get the valve springs to close the valves fast enough. Hemi heads with valve cut outs in the tops of the pistons back in the 50's.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:02 PM   #55
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I read someplace when researching this particular problem that this is not the case in Europe. VW said that the lines from the various tanks run down to the pump directly from each tank and the pump is right at the tank car / truck fill. So in effect the cross contamination is non existent in Europe. But it turned out to be contamination in this country plain and simple. There was one case where the truck driver had dumped a 500 Gal compartment of gas into the service stations diesel tanks by accident.
Not sure... but I think the term "pipe" was meant to mean "pipeline" from refinery to whereever...not at gas stations...although there could be sone comingling there too

When I took a tour of a refinery...they showed large inflatable balls sent through pipeline to separate the different grades of gas/diesel. When asked was there sloshing around the balls and mixing...the tour guide said "yup"....
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:28 PM   #56
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............. There was one case where the truck driver had dumped a 500 Gal compartment of gas into the service stations diesel tanks by accident.
They did that where I worked once but the other way around. Diesel in the gasoline tank. Every truck (small trucks, vans and pickups) that took on fuel that day smoked and stalled a few miles down the road.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:50 PM   #57
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Not sure... but I think the term "pipe" was meant to mean "pipeline" from refinery to whereever...not at gas stations...although there could be sone comingling there too

When I took a tour of a refinery...they showed large inflatable balls sent through pipeline to separate the different grades of gas/diesel. When asked was there sloshing around the balls and mixing...the tour guide said "yup"....
I was talking at the storage tanks that the oil companies use. For instance Sun Oil or Exon has a depot from which it sends its trucks to all of the service stations within a certain district. I was referring to the filling of those trucks. They carry somewhere about 7,500 gallons in them. It is compartmentalized by smaller amounts. That is controlled by the pipes that come to the bottom of the truck and connect by way of valves to the main drain that is connected to the tops of the underground tanks in those big covers we see at the side of the drive way. All compartments can be routed through the meter that is there as well. So if the gas station getting the fuel may or may not be able to take all 5,000 gallons into its tanks the driver would dump a 3,000 compartment and then meter out of a 2,000 compartment for about 1,000 gallons then stick the tanks to see where they were at. He may then decide to dump the rest of the 2k or meter out 500 gallons and re stick the tanks. I worked at my father gas station for a long time as a kid and checking the trucks when they got there was my job. You check that the driver hasn't stopped off at a friends and is shorting you 500 gallons. Then checking to see if they were empty was another job. You didn't want them leaving with 500 gallons that you paid for. Not the best job when it was 20* and snowing. But as a kid it was cool to be allowed up on the top of the tanker truck and open the hatches to look inside.

The pumps at a gas station are connected directly to the underground system of tanks. There is no way to cross feed from one tank to the other. That is either done by putting the incorrect product into the the tank or by using a pump to transfer the product from one to another like a bilge pump is used.

We had 16k of gas under the ground and we kept them close to full. So when we sold 6k we would order a load for the next day.
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