Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-04-2013, 11:57 AM   #21
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Rick,
At first I thought of grabbing some tomato's to throw and then the light went on. But it would lube fuel pumps and injector pumps and it's with injector pumps that diesels need lubricity isn't it?
What evidence exists to show that commerically available diesel fuel straight from the pump or truck without additives lacks the lubricity required to obtain full life of pumps and injectors?

What is the impact of used lube oil and ATF on injector tips and on combustion?

What is the calcium and phosphorus and zinc content of ATF and used lube oil and what impact do those elements have on pumps and injectors?
__________________
Advertisement

RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 01:24 PM   #22
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,711
Rick I covered your paragraph 1 in my post 7 but generally I think you're just trying to give me a bad time make me look ignorant so I'll not respond further.
__________________

__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 03:08 PM   #23
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,147
Great question Sam. The older motors such as yours are not run by electronic brains or have any emmisions on them. Back in my trucker days, I would add 1 gallon of ATF to each fuel tank. It helpsed some keep the injectors from sticking and did reduce my maintanence $$.

With my pick up trucks (and you know how hard I work them) I use one of the following (keep in mind my last PU had 320,000 mile on the 6.0 ford before I traded it in):



__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 03:14 PM   #24
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,792
I'd really pay attention to what the engine manufacturers say on the subject. Some of you have engines that no longer have factory support, and/or may not have the service manual, so are more subject to the whims and prejudices of mechanics.

My old Detroits are still supported and my service manual is the update of March 2003, so low sulphur was in the system and ULSD was in sight. So in the case of the Detroit 2 strokes, arguably a Cro-Magnon device, they do not recommend additives (other than Bio Bor if the fuel is going to sit for a long time), specifically prohibit the addition of used oil and only discuss the issues raised by HIGH sulfur content, there is no minimum sulfur content in their detailed fuel specifications. They list sulfur and lubricity maximums, no minimums. So don't make blanket assumptions or pay too much heed to wive's tales and superstition. USLD is supposed to be completely phased out by December of 2014, last I heard.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 04:14 PM   #25
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Marvel Mystery Oil has been shown in recent fuel additive studies to actually decrease fuel lubricity. As such, it should never be used in an engine if increased lubricity is a hoped-for objective.

ATF is a shade-tree mechanic's cure for sticking valve lifters. ATF apparently has a higher detergent content than most motor oils so adding a quart to an engine's normal capacity is supposed to help clean off gunk or buildup that could be causing a sticking lifter. I learned this "trick" some time ago when our Range Rover developed a sticking lifter. The ATF--- or some other factor I didn't know about--- worked as advertised and I have used it periodically to keep the problem from recurring. So far and some 150,000 miles later, so good.

But adding ATF to lube oil is one thing (maybe). Adding it to fuel is something else entirely and I would not do this without checking with a whole lot of experienced engine experts and the engine's operating manual and maybe even the engine's manufacturer if they are still supporting that engine, first.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 04:57 PM   #26
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Rick I covered your paragraph 1 in my post 7 but generally I think you're just trying to give me a bad time make me look ignorant so I'll not respond further.

The questions are rhetorical and placed there to get people to start thinking about what is in the stuff that dockside mythology promotes mixing with their fuel to cure problems that, for the most part, simply don't exist.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 05:30 PM   #27
Guru
 
bobofthenorth's Avatar
 
City: Cowichan Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gray Hawk
Vessel Model: Defever 43 Offshore Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 570
The fact that somebody has thrown something in the tank for xx years and his engine hasn't blown up says more about general engine reliablity than it does about the properties of whatever mysterious elixir is being promoted. Balance those isolated stories against hundreds of thousands of engines running for millions of hours without any added snake oil and form your own conclusions. I lost a lot of respect for Bob Smith when I heard him promoting MMO.
__________________
R.J.(Bob) Evans
www.rjevans.org
www.travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com
bobofthenorth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 12:45 AM   #28
Sam
Senior Member
 
Sam's Avatar
 
City: Kalama, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: "Restitution"
Vessel Model: 38' Californian
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 135
It was explained to me this way, and it makes some sense: We all have used diesel to clean various engine parts, right. Why? Because it excellent at removing grease and oil. From what I understand, high sulfur diesel had lubricating properties where the LS diesel does NOT (or not much anyway). Without the HS diesel, the rods within each injector and the distribution pump components will wear much faster. Also, if an injector is NOT atomizing well, the LS diesel can wash the cylinder wall clean of the film of oil and cylinder wall will become scored.

Being I have new injectors, I believe I will get some diesel addative, but likely not ATF in the future. (even though their is a chance it is the same thing). It cannot in anyway hurt. I may see how the 2 stroke works as well. I will let you all know. Thanks for the input.

sam
Sam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 12:54 AM   #29
Sam
Senior Member
 
Sam's Avatar
 
City: Kalama, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: "Restitution"
Vessel Model: 38' Californian
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 135
For my next comment.......................... I'm thinking about pouring old and well-used deep fat fryer oil from my neighbors fried chicken restaurants into the tanks as fuel.
Sam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 01:54 AM   #30
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
For my next comment.......................... I'm thinking about pouring old and well-used deep fat fryer oil from my neighbors fried chicken restaurants into the tanks as fuel.
Seen it run in trucks from Alaska to North Carolina. Although I would be carful in NC as the state smells trucks going to the race track and then see if they are paying road tax....
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 06:23 AM   #31
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Speaking of "stupid boating tricks" How about thye suggestion I've seen from some people to add a few gallons of gasoline to diesel fuel for quicker starts and better performance?
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 06:24 AM   #32
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,524
Fuel ( gas or diesel) is a commodity that comes out of a pipeline with specifications that meet a minimum for sale.

The distribution terminal is "supposed" to add whatever it required for future use,and remove the entrapped water.

Taking a precaution , from a BAJA filter as it is taken aboard, killing bugs , adding lubricity or secondary water/crud filtering is for the fuel user to do.

Hope springs eternal , but the boat stops with bad fuel.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 07:18 AM   #33
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
It was explained to me this way, and it makes some sense: We all have used diesel to clean various engine parts, right. Why? Because it excellent at removing grease and oil. From what I understand, high sulfur diesel had lubricating properties where the LS diesel does NOT (or not much anyway). Without the HS diesel, the rods within each injector and the distribution pump components will wear much faster. Also, if an injector is NOT atomizing well, the LS diesel can wash the cylinder wall clean of the film of oil and cylinder wall will become scored.
You were delivered an explanation by someone who has not learned anything about diesel fuel since the 1980s.

One of the best cleaners to remove grease and carbon and crud from your hands is clean lube oil. Does that mean it doesn't do a good job of lubrication?

You can believe any mythology you want but please, don't post it here as if it is factual information. Your source is so unreliable and uninformed that I wouldn't take his word for it if I asked what time it was.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 07:38 AM   #34
Guru
 
jleonard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,739
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Speaking of "stupid boating tricks" How about thye suggestion I've seen from some people to add a few gallons of gasoline to diesel fuel for quicker starts and better performance?
Well just so you know, adding gasoline to the diesel was in the owner's manual for my old 1981 VW diesel Rabbit. It was used as an anti-gel and I believe it said 3 gallons of gas in the 15 gallon diesel tank for winter.
This was the manufacturer's recommendation.
So don't be so quick to judge.

The reason I won't put tranny fluid in my diesel is because I worked with bearing design engineers for many years and they all cringed when they had to design or apply bearings that were lubricated with tranny fluid. It was not the greatest lubricant and reduced bearing life.
__________________
Jay Leonard
Attitude Adjustment
40 Albin
Mystic,Ct. /New Port Richey,Fl
jleonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 08:39 AM   #35
Guru
 
Brooksie's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 954
My '68 Mercedes 220 diesel also called for a gallon of gasoline per tankful in climates where temperatures could fall below 0'F. I regularly did this when traveling northern New England in winter not knowing if that night's motel allowed plugging in block heaters.
Brooksie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 09:52 AM   #36
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
From what I understand, high sulfur diesel had lubricating properties where the LS diesel does NOT sam
Your understanding is incorrect. I have purchased millions of gallons of low sulfur fuel for old and new diesels alike. The "new" diesel fuels do just fine and meet the most rigorous of engine builders specs and related warranties - without aftermaket additives.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 10:04 AM   #37
JD
Guru
 
JD's Avatar
 
City: New Bern NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stella Di Mare
Vessel Model: Mainship 34t
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,702
Back in the day when engine vacuum was used to down shift an auto trans the rubber diaphragm would sometime get a pin hole which would allow ATF to get into the fuel by way of the Carb intake. At first it was unnoticeable but as time went on a couple of things would happen. First was that the trans needed a quart of oil every one and w while but there were no leaks. Then not long after that the hole would get a little bigger and the engine would trail a bit of smoke. Then the trans would not down shift even if it was full of ATF. Then the smoke out the tail pipe looked like a Mosquito Control Truck spraying the neighborhood. Then someone figured out what was wrong and replaced the vacuum switch on the front of the Transmission pan and all was well. But not really, from that point on depending on how much ATF went through that engine the engined burned oil. The cause was that ATF had glazed the cylinder walls. Only a complete tear down and deglazing cured the problem.

Moral of the story ATF belongs in the Transmission not the fuel supply.

And yes we did use 30 wt non detergent oil in the old Lawn Boy but that was because no one wanted to spend $.50 for a small can (6 or 8 oz) of 2 cycle oil when a quart of 30 W cost $.35. Not because it was good for the engine but because it was cheap and it was only a lawn mower.

One other interesting thing with the old 2 cycles is that Saab and DKW had 2 cycle engines in their cars as well as several other companies. Both had oil tanks that fed the carburetor through a metered jet at the throttle base of the carb. Couple of things. Folks here in the US didn't like the light coming on that said you were low on oil so they just ignored it and the other was that the orifice in the jet would get clogged because some folks were creative (sound familiar) and used old drain oil in the tanks instead of clean new oil. Both resulted in an over heated frozen engine.
__________________
Vinny

M/V Stella Di Mare
New Bern NC
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 11:17 AM   #38
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooksie View Post
My '68 Mercedes 220 diesel also called for a gallon of gasoline per tankful in climates where temperatures could fall below 0'F.
That was to help prevent the fuel from gelling, it also reduced the lubricity considerably but since it was just an occasional thing the increased wear probably never showed up.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #39
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,147
One thought. Adding ATF to your truck or car that runs on diesel can run the risk of heavy fines by DOT. Makes the diesel look like off road stuff....
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 12:52 PM   #40
JD
Guru
 
JD's Avatar
 
City: New Bern NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stella Di Mare
Vessel Model: Mainship 34t
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
That was to help prevent the fuel from gelling, it also reduced the lubricity considerably but since it was just an occasional thing the increased wear probably never showed up.
The TDI VW's have had an issue with their fuel delivery system in the last several years. The early TDI's have had several pump failures. These are real expensive repairs because when it finally fails it has been failing for quit some time by destroying itself. So by the time it does fail little metal filings have been through the system including the injectors and into the cylinders of the engine. Cost is some where around $5-7 k for the repair.

I mention this because folks jumped on VW as the culprit due to low lubricity not being taken into account when the fuel pumps were built. So there was a big push from some of the VW blogs to add an additive. Yes there are at least two revised fuel injection pumps since the first failure so this didn't help VW. But it turns out the real problem each and every time has been that some where some how gasoline has been introduced into the system by mistake. Either at the station where the diesel was bought or by the attendant at the station or by the owner or someone that borrowed the car from the owner. In the case of the service stations it was just negligence on either the driver of the delivery truck or at the terminal. It seems that in this country some terminals have only one pipe that goes from the big tanks to the trucks and the selection is made between grades of gas and diesel up stream from the end of the pipe. So anything lingering in the pipe is sent on with the next product. In gas it isn't' a problem high test to reg or mid range all mix OK. Diesel into gas is not a problem but some time gas into diesel can be. Just depends on how much is there.

I check the fuel filter on every fuel filter change to see if there is any hint of metal. Replacing the pump with a new one is under $1k before hand. Beats the hell out of $7k after. So far 70k and no silver lining in the filter.
__________________

__________________
Vinny

M/V Stella Di Mare
New Bern NC
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
fuel addative

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012