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Old 01-03-2015, 06:48 PM   #21
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AusCan, why not consider another Volvo?
I haven't completely discounted a new Perkins based Volvo D2-40F, but my initial inquiries suggest the cost is significantly higher than some of the others.

Also I've heard some bad reports about their electronic "black box" which manages starting, glow plugs, engine hours etc.
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Old 01-03-2015, 07:17 PM   #22
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I think the Volvo D1 and D2 series are simply Shibaura engines. Perkins also marinized these. See little point going through so many layers of Euro companies to get a basic Japanese mini-tractor engine.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:02 AM   #23
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Have had Kubotas in Peggy-Anne for 15 years. Done 5000hrs no big probs. Economical to run and parts readily available. Hope to get another 5000 at least. Bloody great little motors
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Old 02-01-2015, 02:16 PM   #24
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After researching & measuring & getting prices I'm now leaning towards a Vetus M4.45 (42hp Mitsubishi based)
My choices were limited due to the driveshaft position being low in a narrow bilge. The old Volvo had rear engine mounts higher than the front engine mounts. All new engines have all 4 mounts on the same plane.

So - The Vetus will fit nicely with Hurth ZF-25A gearbox. This gearbox has a higher vertical offset than most, and a 8 degree down angle which lines things up perfectly. A bonus with the hydraulic transmission is that it can be run either way, so I don't have to change out my LH prop.

Was a busy weekend - I pulled the old Volvo out, along with both fuel tanks. I now have an engine room! Begun the clean up of 32 years worth of grime.

Fitted my "test engine"; a wooden Vetus mock-up, which confirmed my angles measurements. Nice quiet engine, but not much power.
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Old 02-01-2015, 02:26 PM   #25
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It is common to need to fab custom brackets for mounts. Rare for the factory stuff to fit unless building a new boat.

Don't skimp on motor mounts. I like Metalastic mounts for small diesels with low cylinder count. The soft mounts keep idle vibes from getting into boat structure.
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Old 02-01-2015, 02:29 PM   #26
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The other "fun" comparison is to plot the HP/torque curves of each considered engine on MS Excel to compare directly. Unfortunately I plotted 50-60hp and 70-75hp groupings. Nothing smaller.

If you like drop me a pm with your email and I can send you mine to use as a template.
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Old 02-01-2015, 03:30 PM   #27
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AusCan,
That's great. Now there's someone w the same engine as mine. Not that there's any real meaning to that but I like anyway.
Love the Vetus yellow. My Mitsu came in an industrial flat black and looked used from the start.
Something I can recomend from my own experience is PolyFlex engine mounts. They are plastic .. as I recall. It seemed to me that reduction in vibration would be more likely if the material used actually absorbed some movement and energy. Rubber tends to return almost 100% .. that's why a rubber ball bounces. Based on that thinking I bought PolyFlex mounts for Willy and am still happy w that decision. I had my aft mounts moved aft to the BW gear to more evenly distribute the total weight of the package. Engines w more than two cylinders don't pitch much but move radially a lot. Mounts at the same height is also a benifit IMO.
The oil filters are very small and I prefered the vertical oreintation so I went w a remotely mounted filter that was considerably larger. I don't recomend that as I was plagued w oil leakage. Just reciently I removed the remote plumbing and mounted the small filter where Mitsu put it. I was accustomed to changing oil often and the filter every third oil change but now w the smaller filter will change the filter every oil change.
FYI .. I start after 6 to 10 seconds of glow plug operation depending how cold the engine is. Have not replaced any glow plugs in almost 10 years. I'd recomend the Orange long life AF for you because of your aluminum exhaust manifold. I use 30W Delo oil and am wondering what Vetus recommends. I have a manual reciprocating oil pump/extractor connected by a hose attached to the drain plug provided by my marineizer .. Klassen in BC Canada.
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Old 02-02-2015, 05:29 AM   #28
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Eric,
Vetus seems to do a good job on the Mitsubishi conversion. On this model (M4.45) it has a cast aluminium coolant tank on top of the engine. Besides assisting with cooling, it also acts as a sound shield, reducing engine noise level by 5 dB.
They come with a 5 year warranty on the engine, (3 years on the heat exchanger) and the price was about 35% less than a similar sized Beta fitted out with similar options. They also allow self servicing with non-Vetus parts without affecting the warranty.
All up, it looks like it will be a good package .
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Old 02-02-2015, 02:26 PM   #29
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REPOWER.The "KOKANEE"

Seems the choice are easy.

The Nanni 40 HP. 2.0 litre engine I agree with you will be the rigth engine for your Vessel, - also what you leaned to begin with.

Th Nanni people are rigth at your doorstep in Port Adelaide, Becker Industrie.

This Kubota of the Super 03 series are known to be a beefy engine, good stamina, weigth: 256 kg. a hefti torque curve already from 1200 rpm.
up to 2100 rpm. some 14 kgm.- proves it.

As you said, liked to have more HP. for exstra equipment. Mark: the 38 HP.Nanni are only 1.500 cc. some max.torque :8.3 kgm.


The gear are often more to worry about, than engine, so awoid this, but take a bigger than the standard, if TMC 60 are standard then go for a a TMC 260.
Or better still, a ZF. 25 hydraulic, alt. ZF.25 man.operated.
Both ZF25 gears can deliver a 2.72:1 reduction ratio.

Since the prop. are the only media to tranfer Power to Water, a big dia. slow turning prop. are of importance, for a heavy vessel as your KOKANEE, to push tru Water, at 7.0 knot max. speed 7.3 kts.
7.0 knot at 2600 rpm. full power 2800 rpm. told to be 7.3 knot.
Took my time to run a prop.caculator sheet. after a Kuddle 30, hull.
7.ton. displ. 28 feet w.l. red.ratio 2.7:1.
Good luck in Australia, Here in Denmark. Nanni Diesel are higthly rated.
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Old 02-02-2015, 05:52 PM   #30
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Willard powered the W30 (see avatar) w a 107 cu in engine and over propped it so instead of having 36hp on hand there was only about 33. Even w 33hp the 8 ton W30 is slightly over powered so IMO any deviation from 107 cu in should be down rather than up. Two liters is too big of an engine but the Kubota's are wonderful engines .. no doubt about it.

When I repowered my Willard I was faced w the choice of (after narrowing down) the 107 cu in Mitsubishi or the 113 cu in Isuzu. My favorite was the 54hp Isuzu but was just too much power. Haven't been sorry I choose the 107 Mitsu. It's only about 10% overpowered .. and that seems a very good place to be.
gadenors is the 38hp Nanni a Kabota and is it 1.5 liter? That would seem perfect IMO. A three or a four cyl engine?
AusCan I just checked back and see Kokanee is a ton less than the W30 so even 30hp should be plenty of power. I was afraid to go smaller and understand the situation but in the end for me I could have. If you want to go a bit smaller than the 107 Mitsu they (Mitsubishi) does make a shorter stroke version of the .... I just checked the web site and it looks to not be there. However that's in N America so elsewhere it probably still is. I saw the smaller engine on the Vetus catalog .. but that was about 8 years ago. A stone to possibly overturn though.

The only variable yet unturned yet (I think) is the drag of the hull. If the hull drag is higher than the W30 then perhaps 34hp would be better. The Willard is only average drag for her type .. IMO.

One more comment is that I don't think there's any advantage to a deeper reduction than 2.6-1. Big propellers have their problems and smaller props are more flexible re power loading v/s speed.
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Old 02-02-2015, 08:53 PM   #31
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Did you get the spreadsheet?
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Old 02-02-2015, 09:11 PM   #32
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Anybody know about the Yanmar. A friend just reposted with two Yanmars. The blocks are BMW. I'm told they are bullet proof. From what I'm told Yanmar uses several different blocks to maranize. Not sure.

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Old 02-02-2015, 09:22 PM   #33
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4 and 6BY Yanmars are BMW car blocks. 6LP are Toyota. 8LV also Toyota. 6SY and 8SY are Scania. The rest of Yanmar's line I think are all built directly by Yanmar.
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Old 02-02-2015, 09:30 PM   #34
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Thanks. That's what I thought. A BMW mechanic friend of mine highly rated the BMW blocks.

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Old 02-03-2015, 06:44 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Willard powered the W30 (see avatar) w a 107 cu in engine and over propped it so instead of having 36hp on hand there was only about 33. Even w 33hp the 8 ton W30 is slightly over powered so IMO any deviation from 107 cu in should be down rather than up. Two liters is too big of an engine but the Kubota's are wonderful engines .. no doubt about it.

When I repowered my Willard I was faced w the choice of (after narrowing down) the 107 cu in Mitsubishi or the 113 cu in Isuzu. My favorite was the 54hp Isuzu but was just too much power. Haven't been sorry I choose the 107 Mitsu. It's only about 10% overpowered .. and that seems a very good place to be.
gadenors is the 38hp Nanni a Kabota and is it 1.5 liter? That would seem perfect IMO. A three or a four cyl engine?
AusCan I just checked back and see Kokanee is a ton less than the W30 so even 30hp should be plenty of power. I was afraid to go smaller and understand the situation but in the end for me I could have. If you want to go a bit smaller than the 107 Mitsu they (Mitsubishi) does make a shorter stroke version of the .... I just checked the web site and it looks to not be there. However that's in N America so elsewhere it probably still is. I saw the smaller engine on the Vetus catalog .. but that was about 8 years ago. A stone to possibly overturn though.

The only variable yet unturned yet (I think) is the drag of the hull. If the hull drag is higher than the W30 then perhaps 34hp would be better. The Willard is only average drag for her type .. IMO.
Leper reduction than 2.6-1. Big propellers have their problems and smaller props are more flexible re power loading v/s speed.
Eric.
Yes Eric, the N4-38 is a 1.5 L. Kubota are of the super 05 series.
I agree with you that the 1.75 L Vetus/Mitsubishi is a fine well build engine, the oil filter (mid on bloc.) are easy to change, so are the rest.
Sole in Spain, also marinize your 1.75 But as a 1.3 L 3 cyl . 33 HP.
Mitsu og Kubota? - not mush diff.in quality, those Japanese small are almost the same higth quality, mechanic say that Kubota are easier to rebuild. If one have good and easy relationship with a dealer that you trust, then thats the one to place an order, Mitsu og Kubota, Beta or Nanni, - small marginal often plays a role..!
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Old 02-03-2015, 10:00 AM   #36
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gadenors,
I do like Kabota's. Almost bought one for Willy. It was a very heavy 42hp engine .. all cast iron and made it's power at 2500rpm. It was offered by Westerbeke via Gallery Marine in Seattle .... until it wasn't. Just when I was reaching for my checkbook. NLA.

Yes these small Japanese engines are very good .. and still available non-turbo. If the single engine option wasn't so popular I'll bet there'd be repowers w two of this type of engine on boats like a GB 32.
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Old 02-03-2015, 02:24 PM   #37
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I decided to go for the Vetus Mitsubishi over the Kubota for 2 reasons.

1. The Vetus engine mount footprint is narrower, and a better fit in the tight space I had available.
2. Both original quotes were very similar in price, with Beta being about $1000 higher.
But Beta wanted $5000 extra for a 100amp alternator, instrument panel with 3 gauges, a hydraulic gearbox, and freight. With Vetus, it cost less than $400 extra for the same extras. (including air freighting the ZF25A gearbox from Holland)

So with the savings, I'm buying 2 new custom made fuel tanks, a good filter system, sound proofing the engine room, upgrading the bilge pumps, plus money left over.
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Old 02-03-2015, 02:32 PM   #38
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Did you get the spreadsheet?
I did. Thanks NS,
Quite a thorough tabulation you've got going there.

I had plenty of charts & numbers, but still needed my wooden mock-engine to show me which engine was the best fit.
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Old 02-03-2015, 03:29 PM   #39
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4 and 6BY Yanmars are BMW car blocks. 6LP are Toyota. 8LV also Toyota. 6SY and 8SY are Scania. The rest of Yanmar's line I think are all built directly by Yanmar.
When the smog regulations went into effect in 2007(?), Yanmar contracted out to these vendors for engines in the 100-300hp range. I was under the impression that it was a transient thing until Yanmar could get their production line up and running to produce that range of engine. I could be way off....
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Old 02-03-2015, 04:25 PM   #40
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When the smog regulations went into effect in 2007(?), Yanmar contracted out to these vendors for engines in the 100-300hp range. I was under the impression that it was a transient thing until Yanmar could get their production line up and running to produce that range of engine. I could be way off....
This is a complicated arena, and we will probably never know the whole story. Lots of the details are kept close inside the various corporations.

I have heard bits from various sources, and tried to put some bits together in a way that made sense:

Many of the emission control technologies are protected by patents. Many patents. Some engine builders purchase their injection system from Bosch, which hold many of the patents. This includes Cummins, Volvo, and most of the other Euro engine builders. So these builders license Bosch tech as part of buying their injection equipment. Other builders such as Yanmar and Cat have traditionally built their own injection equipment, or purchased from third party Bosch license holders.

As emissions tightened, Bosch developed stuff that met the rules. Other non-Bosch engine builders went their own way, experimenting with other ways to comply. But they either did not successfully meet the rules, had poor performance, or ran afoul of Bosch patents.

Who knows what kind of licensing agreements are out there in the corporate world, but there may be some exclusivity there. Cummins may have something where Cat cannot buy the same tech. Who knows!!

So we have Cat and Yanmar late to the common rail world. Yanmar now does have CR in the Toyota based engines, and recently also the JH. Cat has no common rail in smaller engines, except for those bought whole from some Euro builders.

The junk I typed above is about half speculation and the other half based on hearsay, so take it for what it is worth!!

Some of the patents are expiring, and that may allow more CR tech without licensing trouble.

Who knows.
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