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Old 01-18-2016, 11:00 PM   #41
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That's a great little demo, Baker.Thanks.
It shows an intercooler at the 2:50-3:00 mark and, going back to my original starting post, we can call that an aftercooler as well, right?

Learned a bunch more than I asked for in this thread.
In this case, I think intercooler and aftercooler are interchangeable....as stated in Ski's excellent post earlier(post #3).
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Old 01-19-2016, 08:41 AM   #42
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"And THAT IS THE REASON why turbodiesels dominate the current modern market. They are more efficient...hence they burn cleaner...hence less pollution."

This is true for a modern industrial engine , installed and operated as it was designed.

Take a real 350 HP diesel and require 40HP for 99% of its life and there is no efficiency.

Only massive costs for the never seen high speed Most folks prefer 2-4GPH to 20+ GPH

For many folks the best use of a turbo is in their car. 3X the normal HP is required for 0-60 in under 4 seconds or 15 seconds to get to 155MPH.

Then the car goes back to 40mpg down the highway requiring 2 GPH at normal 80mph cruise.

A turboed 60-80 hp engine for our rec. trawler power requirements is hard to find!
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Old 01-19-2016, 10:01 AM   #43
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"And THAT IS THE REASON why turbodiesels dominate the current modern market. They are more efficient...hence they burn cleaner...hence less pollution."

This is true for a modern industrial engine , installed and operated as it was designed.

Take a real 350 HP diesel and require 40HP for 99% of its life and there is no efficiency

Only massive costs for the never seen high speed Most folks prefer 2-4GPH to 20+ GPH

For many folks the best use of a turbo is in their car. 3X the normal HP is required for 0-60 in under 4 seconds or 15 seconds to get to 155MPH.

Then the car goes back to 40mpg down the highway requiring 2 GPH at normal 80mph cruise.

A turboed 60-80 hp engine for our rec. trawler power requirements is hard to find!
FF- Dave and I went into the numbers and found that a Cummins 6BTA 330 and 370, both highly turbocharged, make about 18hp/gph while running on the prop curve, making 50hp at 1400rpm. That is pretty dang good, probably better than a FL 120 NA engine making the same 50hp.

So there is is no basis for your statement highlighted in bold.

The 6BTA making 50hp in trawler service is quite efficient. If the extra hp in the top end is not used, it will not cost you fuel. And experience has shown that it also does not hurt the engine to run at that point.

Very similar to the duty cycle of similar B engine in a pickup truck, 1400rpm, 50hp, 2.8gph, say 60mph, that's 21mpg, which is about what they get in steady state.
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Old 01-19-2016, 11:17 AM   #44
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I certainly support Ski's analysis above.


It would be nice if the recreational marine diesel manufacturer's made a slow turning, non aspirated, 100-150 hp engine today like the Lehman or the Perkins, which would be perfect for most slow trawlers. But they do not.


So you have to live with a 230 hp Cummins QSB, a D4 Volvo, etc for a new boat and run it low and slow. But as noted above, it will be efficient and environmentally sociable, albeit expensive.


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Old 01-19-2016, 11:49 AM   #45
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These are the kinds of threads I like!!!
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Old 01-19-2016, 11:51 AM   #46
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It would be nice if the recreational marine diesel manufacturer's made a slow turning, non aspirated, 100-150 hp engine today like the Lehman or the Perkins, which would be perfect for most slow trawlers. But they do not. So you have to live with a 230 hp Cummins QSB, a D4 Volvo, etc...
David you read my mind.
I was just trying to formulate an easy to understand question about the need for big space occupying TAs in a 8-10 knot boat when there are FL, JD and Yanmars that would do the same and be easier to access...or would they??
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Old 01-19-2016, 11:57 AM   #47
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David you read my mind.
I was just trying to formulate an easy to understand question about the need for big space occupying TAs in a 8-10 knot boat when there are FL, JD and Yanmars that would do the same and be easier to access...or would they??
NA engines of that size and power do not fit the EPA footprint for emissions. That is basically what put Bob Smith's 140hp Lehman replacement out of business....sadly!!!! What a perfectly great engine....contrary to what Marin thinks!!!!...
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Old 01-19-2016, 12:14 PM   #48
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....contrary to what Marin thinks!!!!...
Oh, shit! Here we go.
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Old 01-19-2016, 12:56 PM   #49
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Actually I forgot about the John Deer 4.5 liter engine. Even though it has a turbocharger, it runs slow, about 2,400 rpm and the after cooler is jacket water cooled which minimizes corrosion problems. And even though it is a 4 cylinder, it should be fairly smooth as it has a balance shaft. It is also common rail injected, so it should be environmentally sociable.


Not surprisingly that engine is used on the smaller Nordhavns and would work with any trawler of 35' to 45' range if all you wanted was to go at displacement speed.


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Old 01-19-2016, 01:07 PM   #50
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Actually I forgot about the John Deer 4.5 liter engine. Even though it has a turbocharger, it runs slow, about 2,400 rpm and the after cooler is jacket water cooled which minimizes corrosion problems. And even though it is a 4 cylinder, it should be fairly smooth as it has a balance shaft. It is also common rail injected, so it should be environmentally sociable.


Not surprisingly that engine is used on the smaller Nordhavns and would work with any trawler of 35' to 45' range if all you wanted was to go at displacement speed.


David
I think that is what powers Mark Pierce's Coot.
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Old 01-19-2016, 01:38 PM   #51
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Also I think OC Diver put a Deere 4045 in his. Probably the best option for true displacement hull boats. Deere stuff has a good reputation.

Frustrating, I looked at the Deere website to try to peel off some burn numbers, not easy to do from the graphs. I really get spoiled by the tabular data Cat and Cummins publish.

It looks like the M1 4045 is turbo, no aftercooler and a mechanical injection pump. So no electronics?? Data sheet is not very clear on tech details.

At 50hp, it looks like it is just under 3gph. Not super good, about 17hp/gph. Not bad either.

I went looking at Cummins for low hp versions that might be appropriate for trawlers, the lowest qsb is 230. At 43hp at 1400 it is 2.6gph, that's 16.5hp/gph. Not very good for all the high tech computer stuff and common rail. At 85hp at 1800, it gets a little better at 18hp/gph.

Since I am completely boooorrreed waiting again for the stupid framing crew to show up, NOT!!, and it is cold as crap outside, I looked at the QSL 9liter rated at 285hp/1800rpm. At 49hp at 1000rpm, it burns 2.6 fro 19hp/gph. Better than the smaller QSB!! At 107hp at 1300, it burns 5.5 for 19.5hp/gph.

So that big engine does better on fuel than the little 5.9liter. It is basically a C series 8.3 with longer stroke, and that engine for some reason has always had good burn numbers in all the ratings.

I think part of the unspectacular CR burn rate numbers stems from the NOx control, so I've heard. Later injection timing or such...

So if you want a big slow turning motor for making 50hp, that QSL is a pretty good prospect. Apparently available KC, not sure how they handle aftercooling, probably still SW, which would suck. Not sure how good for it it would be to loaf along at 1000rpm for it's whole life. I'd rather run a qsb or 4045 Deere at 1400-1600 and pay the tiny fuel penalty.

And that QSL is bound to be dang expensive!!
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Old 01-19-2016, 01:41 PM   #52
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Does Cummins make a 4 cylinder QSB???
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Old 01-19-2016, 02:06 PM   #53
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Does Cummins make a 4 cylinder QSB???
QSB for Agriculture (Tier 2) - Cummins Engines
Wonder, do they Marinize it?
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Old 01-19-2016, 02:12 PM   #54
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Does Cummins make a 4 cylinder QSB???

If that is the same engine family that Dodge uses there is a 4 cylinder version used in small equipment. Had one fail in a Dresser dozer several years ago from lack of oil, it was being worked on a steep slope. Complete new engine was around $2,400.00, way less than parts and machine shop charges to rebuild.


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Old 01-19-2016, 02:25 PM   #55
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Yea, they make a qsb3.9 and qsb4.5, both four bangers, based on the 5.9 and 6.7 sixes. Have yet to see them offered in marine dress.

I went roving around the Volvo site. The D4 and D6 were around 18hp/gph at 50hp. I found a commercial engine, the D7A rated at 177hp and 1900rpm. This one was over 20hp/gph at around 50hp. But I don't think that one meets emissions as there was no tier 2 listed in its certs. Probably meant for third world export.
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Old 01-20-2016, 07:29 AM   #56
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"Take a real 350 HP diesel and"

What would you estimate the service life of that engine at its rated 350 hp?

Why is it not chosen when 350 HP is required 24/7?
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Old 01-20-2016, 09:31 AM   #57
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"Take a real 350 HP diesel and"

What would you estimate the service life of that engine at its rated 350 hp?

Why is it not chosen when 350 HP is required 24/7?
Not sure what your question is. If you are going to run the engine continuous at its rating, you would want an engine designed for that, they are called "continuous duty" or other similar term, and they are readily available.

The QSL9 around 300hp is rated to run at that hp 24/7/365. Most other brands have similar offerings.

And they are turbos with aftercoolers.

High output engines like those used in sportfish are rated to spend only a fraction of their hours at rated power. How long would they last at full? Crapshoot. I do know the mfr's dyno test preproduction engines at like 110% load for thousands of hours prior to releasing them, mostly to find weak spots and protect them from warranty exposure.
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Old 01-20-2016, 03:37 PM   #58
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Given Baker's simple video and Ski's post 3;
TI: Turbo to cooler to blower to engine
TA: Turbo to blower to cooler to engine
is there a preferred, more efficient setup?
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Old 01-20-2016, 04:39 PM   #59
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Given Baker's simple video and Ski's post 3;
TI: Turbo to cooler to blower to engine
TA: Turbo to blower to cooler to engine
is there a preferred, more efficient setup?

As I said earlier, I understand ours as turbo to cooler to engine, no extra blower involved.

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Old 01-20-2016, 04:44 PM   #60
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Given Baker's simple video and Ski's post 3;
TI: Turbo to cooler to blower to engine
TA: Turbo to blower to cooler to engine
is there a preferred, more efficient setup?
The above distinction between TI and TA applies only to Detroit two-strokes. TI preferred as air temps are lower, but that is just MHO.

Four strokes TI and TA mean the same thing.
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