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Old 02-06-2013, 01:25 AM   #21
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Eric, I don't understand your rational on not changing filters but wanting a bypass system?
The sole purpose of a bypass system or filter is to continue to lubricate if the filter plugs or begins to restrict flow. I've gone back and forth with the bypass filters on construction equipment and trucks. There's convincing arguments on both sides. There are bypass filters for most applications if want to go that route.
I'll continue to change my filters with the oil.
Not sure I would agree that the bypass filter's sole purpose is to filter after the OEM filter clogs. Their purpose is to filter the oil to 1 or 2 microns at low flow rates while the OEM handles full flow at 20-30 microns.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:26 AM   #22
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That Tony Athens quote is probably edited or taken out of context. I find it hard to believe a knowledgeable fleet engineer would say that.

OTOH I have encountered the occasional engineer that had me beating my brains out on a bulkhead.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:55 AM   #23
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Not sure I would agree that the bypass filter's sole purpose is to filter after the OEM filter clogs. Their purpose is to filter the oil to 1 or 2 microns at low flow rates while the OEM handles full flow at 20-30 microns.
You are technically correct. My statement was more my "tongue in cheek feeling" about what they do.
I don't buy into some of the filter manufactures hype of extending oil change time frames as it's my opinion that more problems arise from oil breaking down than from dirt passing a 30 micron oil filter.
Amsoil makes a system to add a by-pass filter in-line the oem filter system which wouldn't hurt but I certainly wouldn't extend my oil change time intervals.
Boat engine environments are CLEAN compared to off-road trucks and construction equipment.
I don't see any cost/time benefit going beyond the manufactures recommendations. Others may.

Here's a link from Balwin-
Baldwin Filters | Product Highlights
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:12 AM   #24
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opinion that more problems arise from oil breaking down than from dirt passing a 30 micron oil filter.

Oil does not "brake down" unless you hugely overheat the oil.It just gets dirty and wears out the additives.

The bypass filter is created on the concept that particles smaller than the full flow filter can catch are still large enough to work as an abrasive. Think Valve Grinding Compound.

On our DD's there is a HUGE difference in oil color , which might be due to particle count.

The 8V71 oil is black on start up with a new DD filter and 7 Gal of new oil. Modern Fullflow spin on.

The 6-71 1950's bypass filter runs clean for almost the first 50 hours after a change.

The Bypass filter uses a commercial filter , not a roll of toilet paper.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:09 AM   #25
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I find it hard to believe a knowledgeable fleet engineer would say that.

"Fleet engineer"
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:34 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisuitl View Post
That Tony Athens quote is probably edited or taken out of context. I find it hard to believe a knowledgeable fleet engineer would say that.

OTOH I have encountered the occasional engineer that had me beating my brains out on a bulkhead.
Before one's knickers get in a twist, I've been involved with tens of thousands of oil analyses on fleet and genset engines. I'm a believer. Oil sampling when done on a regular programmed basis is a key tool for determining engine rebuild time, measuring metal wear and monitoring lesser issues when speaking of real workhorse applications. We used dummie samples, different labs to compare, referees, fleet history and OEM advice to insure what we saw was really an event rather than a random spike. On a 100 + unit fleet ranging from sporadic use forklifts to 24/7 haulers it takes a real pro (I'm not one) managing the data and systems to monitor what was going on.

But an oil analysis every now and then on a few hundred hour per year (at most) toy boat engine is not as important as how the real things have been taken care of to prevent the oil from showing baddies.


Oil analysis does no harm for us on trawler forum. But does it do any good? For those of you who detected and prevented a problem or justified a rebuild, in advance of failure, due to an oil analysis done in the fall or spring each year, please post about that event. I don't recall seeing one on TF and very seldom on boatdiesel. Everything I have seen on TF includes the following areas:
  • I'm losing coolant
  • My engine temperatures are up
  • Where did my RW pump impeller vanes go
  • How do I use Ridlyme
  • I have bubbles in the fuel
  • My filters are plugging with gunk
  • I have visible water in my oil
  • My oil smells like diesel
  • I have visible oil in the coolant
  • I have soot in my coolant
  • I have black, white or grey exhaust
  • I have rust all over my mixing elbow
  • What causes hydrolocking
  • I heard a noise and then an hour later my engine stopped
  • I'm burning 1 gallon per hour of oil in my 35 year old DD
  • ETC
If ever on TF (not in a commercial seafaring journal where oil analysis discussions are common) someone has stated their oil analysis, regular not random, showed a gradual buildup of metals indicating a piston, rod or crank is going I'd be very surprised.

Oh, Tony Athens you say. Go to his posting #49252 with the last entry made on Feb 3 titled "MTU Oil Analysis Opinion"

Part of his comment is, "put a random oil analysis where it belongs - at the bottom of the list of things to worry about."
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:41 AM   #27
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Walmart, by far the cheapest source of Shell Rotella I've found, charges the same for syn as regular so now I run syn.

Dave
Most if not all lower priced syns are a blend and a marketing tool. A blend of what is the question. Unless the blend is approved/agreed/stated by the Cummins book, why try to save $$ on an expensive boat and motor by getting a cheap non specified oil? The notion that a little syn is better than no syn is incorrect.

Nothing the matter with Walmart branded and recommended oils. I buy my DELO 400 15/40 at Costco for about 1/2 the cost of the local yard.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:19 AM   #28
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All this synthetic talk is a waste of time. Pure synthetic is one thing but a "blend" is whatever ..... has a tad bit of synthetic within. Like dry cereal that says it's got real raspberries in it. You can eat a bowl, look at the package where it says boldy that there is raspberries in it and notice that you didn't notice any raspberries or even taste any. But you bought the box of cereal.

I said 99% of us don't need synthetic. I may have been wrong. It may be 97% of us. The only thing I can think of that would get your lube oil hot enough to need synthetic is on an extremely high performance engine. John Baker may (just may) have one. Turbos get hot and if one regularly ran a HP turbodiesel at 85+ % of it's output they could possibly need syn lube oil. if one's oil isn't breaking down from severe heat (300 degrees or so) one dosn't need syn oil ... or benefit in any meaningful way.

Premium fuel is another way to get people to buy a higher quality product. But in the "premium" fuel the only premium part is the higher octane and if you don't need it "premium" fuel does you no good at all but they sell lots to people that think it does. Premium just sounds better. And in this high tech world now "synthetic" sounds better and people buy into it.

As to the by-pass filter I see some confusion in previous posts. It's an auxiliary system. It is independent of the installed system on one's engine other than the fact that it uses the oil pump to move the oil that flows through the by-pass filter. As far as I know it just takes a very small amount of oil from the main source, filters it and dumps it into the oil pan or someplace that leads there.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:32 AM   #29
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Something that I don't believe was mentioned here is the claims of better fuel economy with synthetic oil. I suppose it's possible, but I've decided to stick with conventional oil for my boat.


I buy my Shell Rotella oil at Walmart for about $12 per gallon.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:55 PM   #30
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Eric and Chip, I think y'all might be talking about two different things??? I believe Eric is talking about a way to filter oil and Chip is talking about a backup system...
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:52 PM   #31
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Marin thinks it's nuts and so do many others but I think it works well so why not do it?
Think of it this way, Eric. You have drained your dirty oil and put new, clean oil into the engine. Would you then take a quart of the oil you just drained out of the engine and pour it back in?

That in essence is what you are doing by not changing the oil filter along with the engine oil.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:42 PM   #32
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Oil analysis on a regular basis is a very valuable tool to keep track of an engine's condition. While perhaps a bit apples and oranges, the various FAA-approved practices of extending an engine's TBO (time between overhauls) has as a primary requirement oil analyses performed at a prescribed interval. This is so that an increase in internal component wear can be detected before the wear becomes a threat to the engine's reliability.

While a one-time analysis does not have the overall value of analyses done over time at specific intervals, it is not totally useless. When we had the boat we ultimately bought hull and engine surveyed, the engine surveyor took oil samples from both engines and the generator and sent them in for analysis. He ran the engines up to temperature, at full throttle, and so on before taking the samples. He told us that a one-time analysis was not going to tell us anything much about the overall condition of the engine, but that it would at least show the contaminant levels in the oil at that particular moment.

The two Lehmans came back clean as a whistle but the Onan had minute traces of metal in the oil. The surveyor's report said that this was kind of the nature of the beast for this engine and it was nothing to be concerned about.

So as others have said in this thread, a one-time oil analysis is not a guarantee of anything and certainly doesn't provide the true value of periodic analyses, which is to show trends. But I think it can at least give a snapshot of the condition of the engine, particularly with regard to illustrating a higher-than-normal level of contaminants.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:49 PM   #33
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Would you then take a quart of the oil you just drained out of the engine and pour it back in?
I agree and always change the oil filter on any engine at the time of oil change.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:03 PM   #34
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I agree and always change the oil filter on any engine at the time of oil change.
I would have thought that was standard proceedure. Not changing the filter would be like taking a shower and then putting your dirty drawers back on.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:54 PM   #35
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Re the filter change I agree it's better to change the filter.

That said I still don't believe a filter has enough dirt in it to warrant changing. Is changing the filter every 10 hrs is better yet? Why not do that? I do believe the oil needs changing more often than the filter so why should I change the filter more often than it needs to be changed? Can you imagine how much the filter industry is making from this excessive filter changing?

Re the dirty oil Marin if I did as most do ALL the oil would be dirty much more of the time and clean oil is where it's at. This is true as I change the oil more often than usual. I think the main reason I started doing this is to make oil changing simple enough so I would do it considerably more often and there-in lies the value of my practice. Pump the oil out. Put it in the recycle tank. put new oil in. As simple as that. Even clean hands all the way.

Years ago somebody told me re-refined oil is better than new oil for some specific reason. Anybody know why?
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:50 PM   #36
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Years ago somebody told me re-refined oil is better than new oil for some specific reason. Anybody know why?
I believe the theory is that having been run through the engine, some contaminants have been burned off, then the dirty oil is subjected to centrifugal separation and filtration that makes it cleaner than original.

In terms of costs, the expense of filters or using synthetic oil is so trivial compared to most every other expense I can't think of a reason not go with the best, even when you can make the case it isn't necessary. It also isn't very expensive. When I change oil, I use synthetic because contrary to what others on the site have posted, I believe it has better adhesion than dino oil does (or at least that is what the oil expert at CAT national told me). I also change out the bypass filter and the OEM filter. Saving $60 by cutting corners on the operation just doesn't have much appeal.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:03 PM   #37
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Eric--- We change the oil in our Lehmans every 100-150 hours. The manual calls for an interval of 200 hours. And while the filter element may not have much "dirt" trapped on it, the filter itself is filled with a quart or more of contaminated oil. So leaving it on the engine is like putting in 11 quarts of new, clean oil and one quart of contaminated oil.

So it seems a very false economy to leave the old filter in place when one changes the engine oil. Particuarly given the insignificant cost of the filter compared to the other costs associated with owning and operating a boat.

As to changing the filter itself, it's a snap even with the Lehman's "upside down" filter mounting. We were taught a trick that totally elminates the mess of removing the filter, so changing the filter adds virtually no work to the task of chainging the oil.

So I see nothing at all to be gained by retaining the old filter with its load of contaminated oil. But if the cost and effort of changing the filter every time is more than someone else wants to deal with, that's okay, too.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:17 PM   #38
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Where is a reputable place to get an oil analysis done?
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:49 PM   #39
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Where is a reputable place to get an oil analysis done?
Your best bet is probably to ask a good diesel shop in your area or a local engine surveyor.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:10 PM   #40
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Oh, Tony Athens you say. Go to his posting #49252 with the last entry made on Feb 3 titled "MTU Oil Analysis Opinion"

Part of his comment is, "put a random oil analysis where it belongs - at the bottom of the list of things to worry about."

Bingo. In context, he's bang on.
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