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Old 04-12-2012, 10:04 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Ever order stuff direct from a manufacturer? Often it's more expensive than ordering it from a retailer.
The reason the Manufacturer charges retail is to support there deal base. No other. The Retailer can take a little or as much of a margin as they like.

My apologies as to mis quoting you. I thought that I was quoting Eric.

Now we can get our underwear un wadded and go about our normal business.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:13 AM   #42
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Nothing wadded here... but your auto analogy doesn't apply to independent testing...just passing along info in case someone wants to reasearch oil further than just buying brand names...
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:47 AM   #43
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I think I painted myself as someone that is against mulit-vis lubricants. Not so. I use Castrol GTX 10W30 and 20W50 in my cars. Frequently to occasionally one needs to come out of a motel room on a cold morning and run right up to speed on the highway and some of us live at the bottom of a hill and need to put a load on the engine right away. Unless we want to stand around a while and warm the engine up ......but most of us are not built that way. But w most all of our boats we warm up in the way we get underway and by the time we tie up all our mooring lines and the power chord the engine has cooled down nicely. So I think the duty cycle of our boats is such that 30W oil works perfectly well. And If one uses multi-vis it's almost absolutely certain positively nothing will happen that is bad. I just think it's a tad better to run single weight in the boats. The difference is just fly stuff. And synthetic won't hurt your engine ....just your wallet.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:10 PM   #44
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Peter B

Thanks! I watched your impressive Bi-Tron video and placed Bi-Tron website into my favorites collection; will begin to research that lube.

I think you mentioned you were entailed somehow with Bi-Tron Company... You know where Bi-Tron is sold in USA? To your knowledge, does Bi-Tron product produce any lasting ill effects (e.g. blockages from long term buildup) on crank shaft or other bearings’ lubrication journals of gasoline engines? Also, over time, does Bi-Tron produce any problematic coating build-ups on cylinder walls, piston rings/groves – or on – bearing, cam lobe, flat tappet/lifter surfaces?

Gas engines in my 1967 classic muscle car and 1977 classic Tollycraft are original and in excellent condition. They each have flat tappets/lifters (before roller bearing lifters became standardized). Since the advent of catalytic converters zinc volumes in gasoline motor oil have been greatly reduced. Not good for flat lifters and cam lobes, or even bearings in general, as zinc is a good barrier regarding metal to metal lubrication and barrier protection. To counteract that circumstance, in all my classic gas engines, I use Valvoline HD Diesel 5W-40 engine oil having zinc and also include at each oil change a 4 oz bottle of “ZDDP” (ZINC DYALKYL DITHIOPHOSPHATE) http://www.zddplus.com/

From the video it appears Bi-Tron is simply great for bearing surface protection... Reason I ask the questions in first paragraph is because I just wonder if Bi-Tron has any known down side over the long term. I plan to put many more hours on my classic vehicles with their classic engines and will begin to use Bi-Tron if my due diligence proves it to be the winner it appears!

BTW: For cold-starts, after more than two days has elapsed since reaching full temperature, I make sure to turn my engines over by starter alone until oil pressure has come up two to three consecutive times before allowing engine to start. I feel this helps pre-lube/coat the metal parts before ignition begins to put real stress upon their cam, lifter, and bearings’ lubrication barriers.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:20 PM   #45
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...............Some guys laugh at SuperTech oil from WalMart...but an independent lab showed it to be superior to many big name oils in many applications..
Yes, but the Walmart oil might be different the next time you buy it. Walmart doesn't own any oil wells.

A name brand oil such as Shell will be the same or better.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:31 PM   #46
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Yes, but the Walmart oil might be different the next time you buy it. Walmart doesn't own any oil wells.

A name brand oil such as Shell will be the same or better.
yeah...MAYBE.....MAYBE NOT.....

anyway...if you read the tests...the differences between cheap oils and the brand names were so miniscule that the "boating engine expert" who wrote the article proclaimed that to the average boater...their engine would never know the difference...
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:15 PM   #47
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Thanks for the explanation Peter. But as another poster pointed out, fresh oil is fresh oil and as long as the oil and filter(s) are changed before they reach the threshold of "too dirty," the liklihood of an engine failing based solely on the differences between different brands of oil or gimmicks like magnetic adhesion is probably zero. The engine will fail or reach the point of needing a major overhaul for reasons other than the characteristics of the lube oil used, assuming a properly specced oil.

So when our Lehmans crap out--- if I'm even around to see it--- it won't be because we've been using Delo 400 30wt in it instead of multi-vis or synthetic or magnetic oil. It will be because valves burned, or valve guides wore to the point of damaging the valves and valve seats or the head gasket failed or the water pump failed and cooked the engine or...... the list goes on.

The FL120 has a long-established record of longevity running on the oil specified by the manufacturter. Changing to synthetic or magnetic or whatever oil might add a few more hours to the life of the engine, or it might not, but with a life expenctancy of 12,000 to 14,000 hours assuming proper operation and maintenance, who cares?

Armchair theory is fun to discuss and debate but in the end it usually makes little or no difference to reality :-)
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Old 04-13-2012, 07:23 AM   #48
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I make sure to turn my engines over by starter alone until oil pressure has come up two to three consecutive times before allowing engine to start. I feel this helps pre-lube/coat the metal parts before ignition begins to put real stress upon their cam, lifter, and bearings’ lubrication barriers.

Best done on a genuine marine engine with the decompression levers pulled..

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Old 04-13-2012, 11:09 AM   #49
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I note Mr Higgins, the OP, never said WHY he wanted to put Syn in his old engines. The WHY is a big question IMHO. If you care to look it up on CAt's off road user site, CAT has lots of reasons for recommending Dino oil. So do the users who save many $$ by sticking with Cats recommendation for Dino.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:32 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Art;I make sure to turn my engines over by starter alone until oil pressure has come up two to three consecutive times before allowing engine to start. I feel this helps pre-lube/coat the metal parts before ignition begins to put real stress upon their cam, lifter, and bearings’ lubrication barriers. :whistling:[/FONT
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I've talked to a fair amount of people over the years about this because on paper it make sense. But...... turns out that, according to the people I've talked to who ranged from the head of the engineering department for a marine diesel manufacturer to the folks in the diesel shop we use to people who have run diesels in boats and heavy equipment for decades, it's another armchair theory that bears no resemblence to reality. According to all of them, pre-building oil pressure by turning an engine over with the starter basically generates business for the companies that make and rebuild starters. It has zero, nada, zilch, no effect on the operational life of the engine.

Now, if you have an engine that is rigged with a pre-lube system that warms lube oil and then pressurizes the lubrication system prior to engine start, that's another story altogether. For example, the diesels in the motor lifeboats of the RNLI in the UK that are ready for immediate startup and launch from their slipways 24/7/365 are kept heated to full operating temperature at all times and their lubrication systems are fully pressurized prior to engine start. So when they hit the end of their launch ramps they can go to max power immediately.

But simply turning a non-pre-lubed engine over with the starter on the theory that this will reduce start-up wear does nothing to enhance the operational longevity of the engine but does reduce the longevity of the starter. The point being that the engine wil fail or require an overhaul for some other reason long before any benefit--- if there even is one---- from the tiny reduction of startup friction is ever realized.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:58 PM   #51
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But simply turning a non-pre-lubed engine over with the starter on the theory that this will reduce start-up wear does nothing to enhance the operational longevity of the engine but does reduce the longevity of the starter. The point being that the engine wil fail or require an overhaul for some other reason long before any benefit--- if there even is one---- from the tiny reduction of startup friction is ever realized.
Marin – Although you may be correct for diesel engines (I have not run a marine diesel since mid 70’s), regarding pre start oil pressure build-up via starter action alone not meaning much for pre-lubing bearings before start up (as Fred sardonically says: Best done on a genuine marine engine with the decompression levers pulled.)... There is no doubt that in classic gasoline engines building pre ignition engine oil-pressure by starter action alone effectively splurges renewed coatings of oil throughout the bearings’ journals and onto their surfaces before the heavy torque of ignition occurs. I've discussed this with many a qualified gasoline engine mechanic. Starters are a real cheap easy install compared to increased bearing wear as well as possible turned bearings!
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:11 PM   #52
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While never say never, I have yet to hear a mechanic--- auto, marine, or aviation--- tell me that an engine wore out to the point of needing an overhaul because of excess wear on the components due to starting the engine with no oil pressure built up beforehand. If it was as big a deal as some people seem to think it is, you would expect that all the engine manufacturers would have long ago equipped their engines with pre-lube systems as standard equipment. It's not rocket science to come up with a simple, effective, inexpensive system that could be installed during engine assembly. Given the volume of engines produced I expect it would add less than $100 if that to the cost of the engine.

But nobody has, at least not with regards to automotive or non-specialized diesel engines. Your engines will fail for other reasons WAY before whatever friction is developed during startup has any detrimental effect.

If you don't mnd replacing or rebuilding starters more frequently, there's notthing inherently wrong with the practice of turning an engine over on the starter to build oil pressure every time you start it up. If it gives you some sort of peace of mind, great, have at it. But if you think you're making a significant difference to the operational life of the engine, think again.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:05 PM   #53
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Block Heaters

While I live and boat in mostly temperate climates I use block heaters to keep my engines free of condensation and my engine room dry. My engine starts are instantaneous with no visible smoking. My engine oil is warm and ready to go. My boat has always been treated this way, or at least for the last 25 years. I think this may be one of the best things you can do to extend the life of your marine engine. I can't remember hearing of a marine engine failure do to brand of oil or type for that matter. My brother in law lost a Volvo when the oil pump fell off, twice, I'm not a big Volvo fan by the way. I think more engines are lost through poor cooling system maintenance than anything else. Most of these slow boat engines are under stressed by design. The Cat engines in my road trucks had 33,000 mile service intervals. My Detroit manual recommends 300hrs on my 453's. I had a 653 in a Dump truck that leaked so much oil I figured that filter changes was all that was needed in the 15 years I owned it. I'm joking a little but brand of oil isn't big in the scheme of things as long as you change it as recommend. Block heaters now that's important!
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:30 PM   #54
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If you don't mnd replacing or rebuilding starters more frequently, there's notthing inherently wrong with the practice of turning an engine over on the starter to build oil pressure every time you start it up. If it gives you some sort of peace of mind, great, have at it. But if you think you're making a significant difference to the operational life of the engine, think again.
Marin - Don't forget I'm not speaking diesel here, but rather classic, old world, last Century... marine and automotive gas engines.

With accomplished gasoline engine mechanics I have spoken and in the automotive industry in general, it is commonly expressed that as compared to an oil-pressured running gas engine a considerably increased amount of bearing wear occurs in first seconds of ignition as oil pressure begins to again fill the journals to recoat bearing surfaces with the needed lubrication barrier. Also, I've not found any appreciable shorter life-span for starters with or without starter actuated engine oil pressure pre-lube being accomplished. A primary reason for starter failure (although overall hours of use as well as simply years of age do hold a part in this) is overheating due to too often too long actuating of a starter; starters do not like to be overheated! The manner I do my starter-powered oil pressure bearing-pre-lubes is 5 second starter burst with 2 second space between each. I usually get the 1st oil gauge reading in 3 to 4 bursts and then oil pressure reading each burst after. Feeling confident that the engine’s bearings have oil already newly coated with a needed barrier on their surfaces I then start my engine. Why engines don’t come with electric actuated pre-lube oil pressure pumps is anybody’s guess and a good question... In my opinion, they should.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:59 PM   #55
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From another forum - Haven't researched it myself. Just thought be good to place on this thread!

A major container ship operator recently announced they exceeded 40,000 (thousand) operating hours without overhaul on a single large MAN diesel. They credit the exclusive use of EXXON/MOBIL lubes throughout.

Some "old salts" may recall a simiiar claim by Socony Vacuum corporation, back in the 50''s for their motor oil used in the engines for the Queen Mary.

Socony Vacuum of course is now Exxon/Mobil.
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:44 PM   #56
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I dunno..... I have never pre-lubed with the starter any engine I have ever run from the WWII-vintage Pratt & Whitney R-985 radial in the Beaver I fly to the 1987 engine (gas) in my BMW that now has some 250,000 miles on it with no overhaul needed to the rude and crude 2.25 litre engine (gas but designed as a diesel) in my 1973 Land Rover that now has about 200,000 miles on it to the 1973 Lehmans (diesel) in our boat to the high time diesel in the Cat D8 I ran on a ranch in Colorado a few decades ago. And all these engines other than the D-8 which I only ran way back when are running just fine, burning no oil (which is NOT the same as leaking no oil), and so forth.

So unless someone can definitively prove otherwise I'm going to keep this whole "pre-lube with the starter" notion in the armchair theory file.
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Old 04-13-2012, 05:53 PM   #57
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I dunno..... I have never pre-lubed with the starter any engine I have ever run from the WWII-vintage Pratt & Whitney R-985 radial in the Beaver I fly to the 1987 engine (gas) in my BMW that now has some 250,000 miles on it with no overhaul needed to the rude and crude 2.25 litre engine (gas but designed as a diesel) in my 1973 Land Rover that now has about 200,000 miles on it to the 1973 Lehmans (diesel) in our boat to the high time diesel in the Cat D8 I ran on a ranch in Colorado a few decades ago. And all these engines other than the D-8 which I only ran way back when are running just fine, burning no oil (which is NOT the same as leaking no oil), and so forth.

So unless someone can definitively prove otherwise I'm going to keep this whole "pre-lube with the starter" notion in the armchair theory file.
Geezz Marin

That means if the starter actuated pre-lube oil pressure actually elongates engine bearing life, as I've heard it does and I believe it to do... I might be getting 350 to 500K miles out of my 430 cid 360 hp 1967 classic muscle car motor and 5 to 7K hrs each from my Tollycraft 350 cid 255 hp twin engines! If I run one engine at a time doing hull speed my gassers will together push the envelope of the best diesel engine durability. That's pretty good. Thanks for the encouragement!
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:15 PM   #58
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Well, the old FL120 is said to be a 12,000 to 14,000 hour engine in recreational boat service, assuming proper operation and mainenance, and it has done this without people pre-lubing the engine with the starter. So you can see why I think the starter pre-lube business is bunk in terms of it actually doing anything for you over the life of the engine.

Like I--- and everyone else I've talked to with professional engine experience--- said, while the engine may in theory go a few hours or miles longer with the starter pre-lube, the reality is that it will fail to the point of needing an overhaul or replacement from some other cause far earlier than it will theoretically fail from not being pre-lubed by the starter. So you're preventing something that won't make any difference to you. So why bother?
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:25 PM   #59
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Cauz it makes me and my motors feel good!! LOL
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Old 04-13-2012, 07:06 PM   #60
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That's a good enogh reason to do anything
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