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Old 11-29-2012, 09:56 AM   #21
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The storage building where we keep our boat (Great Lakes) is heated to 55 degrees and is very dry when the heaters are running. When the outside temperature rises to about 60 or above, the doors to the building are opened allowing ambient air inside. I am the only owner out of roughly a hundred who covers the exhaust openings. I also fit plastic bags over the air filters. Both are probably overkill.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:26 PM   #22
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A sailor friend restores/maintains antique cars for a living. I asked what he does for extended lay ups since some of the cars are only driven annually. He drains the oil and changes the oil filter before a lay-up but only puts back half of the vehicles oil capacity. Then when the car is going out, he adds the remaining oil just before start up. He feels that by doing this he is pre lubing. I sounds like a good idea for boats. Any thoughts?
He is only pre lubing the oil return drains.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:02 PM   #23
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Well Ron there are some of us who are dependent and some of us are independent. And some are dreamers like me. We put a lot of effort into figuring out things or how to do things and comeup w new stuff or a "never been done" procedure ... get cold feet and read the directions. I frequently read the directions after the fact.

And judging from your post I'm sure you think it's all nonsense and illogical. Far less efficient I'll grant you but it gives us personal satisfaction. I'd rather be satisfied having done a job w my imagination and skill than doing a job as many others have decided the best way to do it is. You can get the job done well w the tried and proven but you'll never find a better way either. Some enjoy the process of getting the job done right and others enjoy the process of doing the job laced w clever ideas and imagination. If the end result is'nt satisfactory (like you've turned on the gas and read the 5 pages of instructions and then lit the stove) you can sometimes get out the book and have a look at the established way to get the job done and however dissatisfying the job turns out.

Jay,
And perhaps some valve guides.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:37 PM   #24
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Well Ron there are some of us who are dependent and some of us are independent. And some are dreamers like me. We put a lot of effort into figuring out things or how to do things and comeup w new stuff or a "never been done" procedure ... .
One of the advantages we humans have over lower life forms is the ability to record our mistakes so others don't have to make the same ones. Life is too short to make all the mistakes ourselves.
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:02 AM   #25
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With regards to pouring fresh oil into a crankcase and thinking that is a "pre-lube," I think that person is deluding himself. Pre-lubing an engine involves pumping oil to the moving parts of that engine---- crank, cam(s), valve rockers, etc. Merely pouring oil into the sump doesn't do any of that.

You can have a real pre-lube system that pumps oil under pressure to the moving parts of the engine before the engine is started, or you can turn the engine over on the starter so that the oil pump does the pumping. The second option mainly creates business for the people who sell or re-wind starter motors. The first option actually does something worthwhile.

But simply pouring additional oil into the sump---- that does nothing in terms of "saving" the engine from being started with little or no oil on the moving parts.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:15 AM   #26
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Well Ron there are some of us who are dependent and some of us are independent. And some are dreamers like me. We put a lot of effort into figuring out things or how to do things and comeup w new stuff or a "never been done" procedure ... get cold feet and read the directions. I frequently read the directions after the fact.

And judging from your post I'm sure you think it's all nonsense and illogical. Far less efficient I'll grant you but it gives us personal satisfaction. I'd rather be satisfied having done a job w my imagination and skill than doing a job as many others have decided the best way to do it is. You can get the job done well w the tried and proven but you'll never find a better way either. Some enjoy the process of getting the job done right and others enjoy the process of doing the job laced w clever ideas and imagination. If the end result is'nt satisfactory (like you've turned on the gas and read the 5 pages of instructions and then lit the stove) you can sometimes get out the book and have a look at the established way to get the job done and however dissatisfying the job turns out.
Does that mean you think adding half the oil in the fall and the other half in the spring is a good idea?
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:01 AM   #27
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Larry M wrote about his friend's odd practice;

"A sailor friend restores/maintains antique cars for a living. I asked what he does for extended lay ups since some of the cars are only driven annually. He drains the oil and changes the oil filter before a lay-up but only puts back half of the vehicles oil capacity. Then when the car is going out, he adds the remaining oil just before start up. He feels that by doing this he is pre lubing. I sounds like a good idea for boats. Any thoughts?"

I had to read back Ron but I found where the idea started in print. "pre-lubing"?
There is a possibility one may, in the act of pouring the oil into the engine through the valve cover, pre-lube a few valve springs, push rods, lifters and perhaps a few lobes of the camshaft. Probably about 1/25th of what needs lubrication in an engine or perhaps 1/100ths.

I think this individual should examine the path the oil takes as it flows over engine parts on it's way down to the wet sump in the oil pan. One might gain speed from a waxed car on the freeway too but ......

A more relative question (I think) would be that there is (an assumption) that there is a benefit to halving oil in the crankcase during storage and perhaps some of that benefit would be lost by only having half the oil there.

Also if one had a desire to go high tech is this matter I would explore the possibility that there may be a proactive way to better store an engine. Out of the blue how-a-bout filling the crankcase completely w a mixture of some fluid that controls the moisture issue and actually submerges most of the engine parts in oil. Or a sort-of fogging fluid that is put in the crankcase and when the engine is cranked over this special fluid (not practically oil) will be pumped throughout the engine and all it's lubricated parts. One would of course need a flushing fluid to remove the storing fluid ect ect.

As I wander around in this idea I see perhaps one could get quite involved in preserving something that may not need preserving at all. When I worked in a diesel powerhouse we DID pre-lube. There was a 300 gallon tank where the lube oil was kept (a dry sump system). In a dry sump system the only oil in the crankcase is that oil that is on it's way to the 300 gal tank. It had electric heaters in it like your hot water tank. The oil was heated to operating temp and then circulated through the engine assumably to all the places the oil normally goes when the engine is running so the hot oil heats most of the engine parts too. And of course the same thing is going on in the cooling system. This is a lot of trouble and expense so it's obvious somebody thinks pre-lubing and preheating has some merit. And of course as w most things it's a matter of balance. How much benefit do we get for how much trouble? Beating the wife takes time and may have questionable results.

So NO Ron I don't think storing w half oil is beneficial but of course I'm just guessing cuse you asked. I do, however think the most relevant fact re this question is the fact that your engine in your yacht is going to die from bad maint to bad operation to bad luck like the boat's sinking. Very rarely will a yacht engine ever get actually worn out. So 99% of the engines here on the forum won't get worn out and probably won't benefit from more than casual winterizing activities. Most all the time I keep Willy in the water and use her occasionally so I don't normally have a storage issue. When I do I crank the engine over for about 10 seconds 2,3, or four times once and awhile. While prelubing an engine that way a crankcase full of 50W oil w an additive like Power Punch to give the oil some extra "cling" properties may help. Just a thought as I haven't done this.

So no Ron I don't think the 1/2 now and 1/2 later has much or any merit. Some people say things like that just to feel and sound knowledgeable and Larry's friend may have gotten that 2nd hand or 22nd hand. Some old wives tales get passed on and on. And those whereas the benefit is obscure and there's no visible downside are ripe for long life.

But since Larry's friend stores cars for a living perhaps it has more merit than I think. Perhaps it all got started just to save on storage oil and that has obvious merit. But pre-lubing while the oil drools down? NOPE.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:02 PM   #28
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My point is simply that the engine manufacturer publishes a storage proceedure as do other engine manufacturers and they are all pretty much the same, yet this individual has somehow convinced himself that he knows better so has developed his own proceedure.

What he has come up with doesn't make a bit of sense to me and I doubt it makes sense to most owners, manufacturers, or mechanics.

In short, he is a fool.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:48 PM   #29
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What book would you go to for storing a 75 to 80 year old Cord, Bugatti or Offenhauser? Or how about a 60 year old Ferrari? Or a 90 year old Durant etc. All the professional maintainers of these exotics and even plain Jane Model As and Ts have very rigorous self developed "books" and storage plans. Same goes for newer Diesels, the book only goes so far and then guys like RickB carry the load. Eric has a point and he is by no means a fool.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:01 PM   #30
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Ron,

Oh yea the book ........... didn't even think about that.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:28 PM   #31
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[QUOTE=rwidman;116269...What he has come up with doesn't make a bit of sense to me and I doubt it makes sense to most owners, manufacturers, or mechanics.

In short, he is a fool.[/QUOTE]

Wow, I'm amazed to say the least. What is wrong with adding oil so it runs down from upper part of an engine that has been sitting for extended periods prior to start up? Conventional maybe not, but to call the man a fool?
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:33 PM   #32
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RWidman

What book would you go to for storing a 75 to 80 year old Cord, Bugatti or Offenhauser? Or how about a 60 year old Ferrari? Or a 90 year old Durant etc.
Or even a 40 year old Ford Lehman 120? I haven't read the manuals for our engines cover to cover but I don't recall seeing anything in them about long term storage. There are accepted practices for engine storage, one of which is not to let a diesel sit for long periods of time with dirty oil in it. But a lot of older equipment doesn't have the level of detail in "the book" that things today have.

I still have the operators manuals for the first planes I ever flew, a Piper Cherokee 140 and 180 and then various Cessnas. These were all 1960s-1970s vintage airplanes. I also have the manual for the newest plane I've flown, a Cessna.Turbo 206. The manual for the 1968 C206 I flew a lot in Hawaii is a pamphlet compared to the manual for the Turbo 206, yet for all practical purposes they are the same plane. I'm sure most people here can come up with similar examples.

So "the book" has changed over the years and these days, whether it's because of lawyers and insurance companies or whatever, there is a far greater level of information and detail than there used to be. But assuming that there is a "book" for every piece of equipment ever made that explains everything you need to know about it is a bad assumption.

And we won't even get in to the decreasing levels of experience and understanding that are leading people into helplessness in the face of what used to be considered no-brainer situations. Like changing a tire or the coolant in their car. This despite the fact that the how-to information is today buried in that phone book sized manual that came with the car.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:58 PM   #33
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Wow, I'm amazed to say the least. What is wrong with adding oil so it runs down from upper part of an engine that has been sitting for extended periods prior to start up? Conventional maybe not, but to call the man a fool?
If it was necessary, the manufacturer would have recommended it. In the meantime, what he didn't do was start the engine after changing the oil to get fresh oil throughout the engine. And of course there's the risk that he or someone else would just start it up with only half the needed amount of oil.

My point is, he somehow feels he knows more about the needs of the engine than the engineers who designed and built it.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:06 PM   #34
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My point is, he somehow feels he knows more about the needs of the engine than the engineers who designed and built it.
No offense meant, but would I be correct in guessing that you are not an engineer?
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:12 PM   #35
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Ron's got a really good point here and those that haven't got the knowledge to go their own way it is VERY smart to "read da book". But for those that want to experiment our boats are toys and we are captains.

Also not to be overlooked is the fact that much of the information in manuals and instruction books is ther'e to Protect THE MANUFACTURER in court. with most of the Ultralight engines I had .. the manufacturers said NOT to use synthetic lubricants but they were almost necessary. Anything a manufacturer recommends or specifies needs to be tested and ther'e are SO many things and methods out ther'e to use and test that their recommendations are very limited.

It's for us to choose. Better performance and having one's neck out and being on your own or follow da book and enjoy the security and comfort of probable guarantees. I'm kind of a half and half kind of guy. And what's important to me is that I don't consider myself a fool. However I'll admit I can't say I've never been a fool.

Sorry Spy .... I think he is an engineer.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:01 AM   #36
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Eric - Ron doesn't have a point, he was referring to Larry's post regarding antique gas engines where there is likely no book and common sense would intrude! Thread creep makes this a bit confuing to follow.

<MOD Split Post Content to Booster Rocket O-Ring Thread in Off Topic Forum>
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:05 PM   #37
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For those wishing to continue the booster rocket O-ring topic it has been moved to Off Topic.

Booster rocket O-Rings
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Old 12-01-2012, 06:47 PM   #38
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Eric - Ron doesn't have a point, he was referring to Larry's post regarding antique gas engines where there is likely no book and common sense would intrude! Thread creep makes this a bit confuing to follow.
Dude! It's a frickin' engine. Any book will work. Putting one half the oil in in the fall and the other half in the spring defies all logic.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:49 PM   #39
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Ron,

I've seen Tom several times and he is indeed a "Dude".

"any book" could get a guy into trouble but I think I see your point. General info re how to store an engine could be found in many places.

And I'm w you on the 1/2 & 1/2. See my previous and windy post.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:31 AM   #40
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Seasonal storage: I'd be more interested in inventing a fogging compound for diesels which would not cause them to run away.

1/2 & 1/2; not for me. You are not "prelubing" an engine by pouring in 1/2 the oil, it goes nowhere useful just down the return holes and into the pan (or in some cases just into the pan)
Prelubers are available and great claims are made for them by preventing dry starts. They are either electric pumps or accumulators that fill when the engine is running & discharge, into the oil gallery, the next time the start key is turned.
This is one I like AutoEngineLube Engine Oil Pre lube System Boats
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