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Old 11-09-2013, 08:05 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Peter B View Post
Turning her over for a couple of reasonable bursts, but without actually firing provides a check on starter motor and battery function, and a quick circulation of oil around all moving parts, and hopefully lubricating/coating the cylinder walls with something to repel moist air, and leave different valves open or closed. That's it - aim achieved,
Although I understand what you are doing, that procedure doesn't tell you if you have sufficient compression for an actual start.
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:57 AM   #82
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I'm thinking running a diesel under loaded or periods idling or starting and idling just to circulate fluids then shutting down is going to be near the bottom of a list of causes of diesel engine failure.
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:02 AM   #83
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There are but maybe a handful of things that you DO have to do or NOT DO to get that far...and like RickB usually says...the rest is just urban myth,,,
I'm gonna go down right now and run my cold motors against the dock and change my oil.

I know it'll cut the life in half, but I'm a rebel.
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:24 AM   #84
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I'm thinking running a diesel under loaded or periods idling or starting and idling just to circulate fluids then shutting down is going to be near the bottom of a list of causes of diesel engine failure.
Although I have no data to back up your statement, I tend to agree. We get all tangled up in our own underwear when posting about our hobby. Too much effort is spent on showing others just how much of an "old salt" we are.

Me! I love the photo posts on cruises to places I've never been. Since my long distance cruising days are over, I can cruise vicariously with those that are out there cheating death, daily.
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Old 11-09-2013, 11:29 AM   #85
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SH II you are totally correct! Thanks for a great post.
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Old 11-09-2013, 11:58 AM   #86
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That "issue" is really just one more of the myths that are given wings in forums like this.

Unless an engine has been sitting unused for extended periods - and with modern lubricants, extended periods are getting longer and longer - there is usually a molecule or three of lube oil between the journals and the bearings while the engine is at rest.

As a journal begins to rotate several things happen, the oil pump delivers oil to the bearings and some of that oil is dragged by the journal to create a wedge of higher hydrodynamic pressure that lifts the journal further off the bearing surface. Once rotation occurs there is no contact and no wear as long as lube oil is present. The engine coolant and oil do not have to reach "normal operating temperature" before "increased wear" is pushed back under the bed.

The crankshaft is the highest loaded component but it also has the largest bearing area and receives oil flow first. The rest of the parts are exposed to relatively light loads and can (and do) survive thousands and thousands of starts with little wear.

The description above should explain why the manufacturer suggests not imposing high loads for a (usually short) period of time. Cold lube oil is more viscous than warm or hot lube oil, viscous oil resists flow and takes longer to reach the components at the end of the oil path. That is really all there is to it. If the engine is warm enough to start without a lot of aids and theatrics, oil flow will occur in very short order and you can drive away without concern that you are damaging your engine.

Oil doesn't have to be as hot as coolant, it just shouldn't be too cold to readily flow to all the parts that need it in sufficient volume to perform its tasks of lubing and cooling. Cool oil is good, cold oil doesn't pump well and its higher internal friction increases the time it takes to reach parts in the outback.

Once the oil wedge is established, wear stops. Temperature is a strawman thrown out by a few who do not fundamentally understand engine operation or construction. The sky does not fall on a cool engine, coolant does not have to reach or remain at some arbitrary level to hold off engine destruction, and oil does not have to reach or remain at its maximum operating temperature limit.
Rick, that was beautiful....I think I got a tear!!!!
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:58 PM   #87
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Rick, that was beautiful....I think I got a tear!!!!


And now Boatpoker, about your non-functioning thermostat ======?
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:40 PM   #88
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Well, I’d say the responses to the OP are quite informative, and quite varied.

So, if I read the info correctly it would appear that the choices are:

A. Don’t run the engines at all (doesn’t do them any good to run them,
doesn't hurt them not to be run either)
B. Run the engines for a short time with no load or optimum temp
C. Run the engines for a short time with load (80%)
D. Run the engines at operating temp for (?).
E. C & D
F. Buy an RV
G. None of the above

I’m glad I didn’t ask how to measure the mass of neutrinos. KJ
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:48 PM   #89
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I’m glad I didn’t ask how to measure the mass of neutrinos. KJ
Now that would have been a much simpler topic
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:52 PM   #90
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Well, Iíd say the responses to the OP are quite informative, and quite varied.

So, if I read the info correctly it would appear that the choices are:

A. Donít run the engines at all (doesnít do them any good to run them,
doesn't hurt them not to be run either)
B. Run the engines for a short time with no load or optimum temp
C. Run the engines for a short time with load (80%)
D. Run the engines at operating temp for (?).
E. C & D
F. Buy an RV
G. None of the above

Iím glad I didnít ask how to measure the mass of neutrinos. KJ
I think you missed an important one...

Run the engines under ANY load you choose as long as the engine warms up to wherever it will stabilize....

That is what the engine would want if not tied to the dock...if concerned...it's really hard to drive all moisture out of oil unless running really hard but moisture usually isn't a problem unless you are letting a lot of condensation form in the engine anyhow...

.....and wear isn't usually an issue or certainly not that great as RickB pointed out...

As been said...if there's a chance of really "dry starts" when it comes to oil...a pre-luber is your best friend but again the chances of the engine wearing out from 5-6 relatively dry starts a year over it's life isn't going to really make a difference in the life of the ownership of most boaters engines.

They either cook them by missing an important issue...or a catastrophic failure occurs that probably didn't come from dry starts or running under load at lower temps and loads.
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:40 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by KJ View Post
Well, I’d say the responses to the OP are quite informative, and quite varied.

So, if I read the info correctly it would appear that the choices are:

A. Don’t run the engines at all (doesn’t do them any good to run them,
doesn't hurt them not to be run either)
B. Run the engines for a short time with no load or optimum temp
C. Run the engines for a short time with load (80%)
D. Run the engines at operating temp for (?).
E. C & D
F. Buy an RV
G. None of the above

I’m glad I didn’t ask how to measure the mass of neutrinos. KJ
H. If you start your engine(s), something bad will happen.
I. If you don't start your engine(s), something bad will happen.
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:12 PM   #92
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Greetings,
Mr. KJ. How can the neutrino mass be measured ?
Ask and ye shall receive, my son....
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:52 PM   #93
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My take? Diesels are tough. Nothing I do with a puny little boat for a few thousand hours matters enough. Keep the oil changed, the fuel filtered, and the cooling system reliable and I won't have to buy another one.

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Old 11-10-2013, 01:47 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by RickB
That "issue" is really just one more of the myths that are given wings in forums like this.

Unless an engine has been sitting unused for extended periods - and with modern lubricants, extended periods are getting longer and longer - there is usually a molecule or three of lube oil between the journals and the bearings while the engine is at rest.

As a journal begins to rotate several things happen, the oil pump delivers oil to the bearings and some of that oil is dragged by the journal to create a wedge of higher hydrodynamic pressure that lifts the journal further off the bearing surface.
Once rotation occurs there is no contact and no wear as long as lube oil is present. The engine coolant and oil do not have to reach "normal operating temperature" before "increased wear" is pushed back under the bed.

Thanks Rick. I was hoping you might just come right out and say that some time soon. I have had more than a sneaky suspicion re the validity of that statement for quite a while, (which is why I run 'modern' oils, even in me old FL120), but it's good to have it confirmed by someone who knows a lot more about the subject than most of us.
That being the case however, we can all relax, and as I have long suspected, it is probably fine to just run the engine for a few minutes to stir things up, and check it all works every few weeks if not used, and not feel guilty and lose sleep at nights. As KJ's post so aptly suggested, whatever floats your boat....
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:12 AM   #95
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... as I have long suspected, it is probably fine to just run the engine for a few minutes to stir things up, and check it all works every few weeks if not used...
Well now ... it isn't quite so black and white.

If you run a diesel at idle from a cold start - ambient temperature at the middle latitudes of Earth - you probably won't destroy your engine because of the dreaded startup wear but you will without doubt, put a fair amount of blowby into the crankcase.

With most of us burning ULSD that is not as big a problem as it used to be but the moisture created by burning fuel and the sulfur in blowby along with the mix of unburned hydrocarbons and soot doesn't do the oil a lot of good. Then, when the now moist engine stops and cools off a lot of that stuff will condense in the rocker covers and exhaust path and start corroding stuff.

A bit of surface rust won't really hurt but it shows up in the lube analysis as iron and makes some people nervous enough to spend money and if the kind of rust and sludge that frequent cold idling causes manages to bridge the tiny gap between a journal and a bearing then real damage can happen.

My own choice ... I run a prelube pump for a minute or longer after oil pressure is established and then roll the engine to reposition the pistons and exercise the valves.

If I didn't have a prelube pump I wouldn't do that process. I would just make sure the exhaust and intake were closed ( I use a little inflatable beach ball sort of thing that fits into the exhaust overboard and pump it up to seal the pipe) and cover the intake filter with a plastic bag.

Turn the shaft and transmission over by hand a couple of times to change where things sit.
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Old 11-10-2013, 10:55 AM   #96
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H. If you start your engine(s), something bad will happen.
I. If you don't start your engine(s), something bad will happen.
J. Trawler owners on internet forums suffer from OCD.
YES!
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:41 PM   #97
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In Central America they use an interesting saying
"Gastando polvora en Zopilote" it means "wasting powder on Buzzards"
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:34 PM   #98
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Thought about you guys today. Was replacing the upper dash panel and started the motors for no reason whatsoever. Probably shortened the life by a good 1000 hours.
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:50 PM   #99
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Thought about you guys today. Was replacing the upper dash panel and started the motors for no reason whatsoever. Probably shortened the life by a good 1000 hours.
Too funny!!

I was going to go over and do the same. But after 37 year of starting those engines cold, I was worried this time could be it. . . The straw that breaks the camels back??

Besides the Seahawks were playing an early game.

9 and 1 GO HAWKS!!
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:52 PM   #100
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Thought about you guys today. Was replacing the upper dash panel and started the motors for no reason whatsoever. Probably shortened the life by a good 1000 hours.
This thread has been quite informative and entertaining.

Funny you post this, SomeSailor. I was doing some electrical work today and decided to stretch Sherpa's legs a bit. This thread did cross my mind. I had to laugh at myself as I rushed to untie the lines and get underway in under two minutes or risk damage to my engine!

A byproduct of being an avid Trawlerforum supporter is my increasing anal retentiveness. We are a very particular bunch!
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