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Old 05-08-2013, 05:23 PM   #81
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Larry,

I just used those numbers as an extreme example of maximizing all collected solar for propulsion. Like you, when I cruised, it was a passage followed by a lot of time at the new anchorage. Plus if you go with electric galley and electric dinghy, then that collected solar will be used for more than just propulsion.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:00 PM   #82
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Tad: I am infatuated with your 40 footer. She reminds me of the Martin's Energy 48 - long and lean.

The heaviest part of solar is the battery. I just installed a 1,000 ah/48v one at 1,250# or so.

If you used the PV panels w/o frames glued to a grid if red cedar you could eliminate the weight of the wood and glass to sheath the cabin top. Not a lot of area, but enough for what I feel is a spartan cruiser.

I have been looking for low HP modern common rail diesels so you don't need to use an inefficient old-fashioned one. The Smart Car in Canada has a diesel option - maybe find someone to marine e for you. This motor was the building block for the 25kw generator that Glacier Bay was using for their diesel electric system - never made it to market.

FNM uses Fiat diesels as low as 75HP in a parallel hybrid system. Still bigger than you need.

Dave Westphal, a Miami legend in sailboat circles has recently build two long lean day boats with plug in electric power.

I'd love to you post more on your design? Renderings? Plans? I love the idea of designing her to an 8' beam since that's the length of a sheet of plywood. The late Phil Bolger had a similar practical streak evidenced in his easy to build from readily available materials.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:22 PM   #83
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Reuben,

I thought I asked you this but couldn't find it in my PM box, so maybe I asked Larry Graf @ Aspen. Do you have an opinion on the 36 hp 80 kg turbocharged Steyr diesel?
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:43 PM   #84
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Not sure the small Steyr is a shipping product? A quick look at the website shows an unusual configuration (unless I'm mistaken?).

Steyr is a "boutique" manufacturer with high end, specialized, uni-block diesels. Their motors can run on bio-diesel and maintain 1,500 RPMs with NO cooling. The turbo models get high HP/pound.

You can eat off the factory floor!
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:48 PM   #85
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I'd love to you post more on your design? Renderings? Plans? I love the idea of designing her to an 8' beam since that's the length of a sheet of plywood. The late Phil Bolger had a similar practical streak evidenced in his easy to build from readily available materials.
Phil taught me many things, perhaps the most important concept is that much is possible with little.

Since you asked......

This is very much a collaborative design worked out over years of conversations with the owner/builder. As such the design is in flux until it's built and the rough drawings are only a guide. I supplied the hull lines and NC data for the molds/frames/bulkheads which are spaced 2' apart throughout her length. So the aft cockpit is 12', the deckhouse is 12', the foc'sl is 8' and the forward cockpit/anchor locker is 8'. The actual layout is the owner's wish.

No decision on how the transom will be done, I like open so small boats can come aboard easily, I think Ron wants it closed so kids and dogs stay
aboard.

The bottom is almost flat at the transom, but only immersed about 2" so she should slide right along. I'm concerned there's not much grip on the water (low-speed control might be iffy) but we'll address that after first trials. A centerboard, some fixed fins, or something.......She is an experiment, mainly I'm hoping to illustrate how light we can build, but we'll see.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:02 PM   #86
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Very interesting boat with very nice albeit simple lines. I hope we'll see it sometime up in BC waters. Do you know yet where it will be based out of?
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:38 PM   #87
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Did you consider a sail drive? Get the motor out of the way?

I had Bolger design my 28' Summer Hen. We built her the same - strip built with glass outside (none inside). Similar proportions - 7' beam - 9" draft board up. We never tooled or produced her though.

Did you make a towing model?
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:02 PM   #88
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I hope we'll see it sometime up in BC waters. Do you know yet where it will be based out of?
She's under construction in the owner's shop close to Halfmoon Bay, Sunshine Coast. Home waters will be the mouth of Jervis Inlet to Desolation Sound.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:22 PM   #89
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Did you consider a sail drive? Get the motor out of the way?

I had Bolger design my 28' Summer Hen. We built her the same - strip built with glass outside (none inside). Similar proportions - 7' beam - 9" draft board up. We never tooled or produced her though.

Did you make a towing model?
I've been warned about sail-drives so often I never consider them any more. As far as I can tell the main reason to have one is to reduce installation man hours and required skills. That's not the case in a home build. In BC you would still have to build a keel/guard forward of the leg to protect it from drift. And I know that a straight shaft with a bearing and stuffing-box is rugged, reliable, and cheap to buy and maintain because they are everywhere. While I agree a Z-leg could get the engine a bit further aft, I actually wanted it further forward to reduce rotational moment (pitching). But the owner/builder already had this powerplant (the boat is an attempt to get the most from this engine) and the boat was designed around it. We'll see if we were right when she's launched.

I'll have to look up the Summer Hen, it's a vague memory......

No model, the form is actually a high-speed motorsailer that I stretched and tweaked. It's closely related to an old (light-displacement, narrow beam) Maine LobsterBoat form. The prismatic and LCB are correct for the design speed, beyond that only tiny improvements are possible given the length, beam, weight, and speed. This is full sized testing, if this one works as advertized the follow up will be about 30' and half the weight with small outboard power.......I am thankful for an owner willing to put money and effort into an experiment.....
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:47 PM   #90
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For the Nissan Leaf, Ford Focus electric and the GM Spark and Volt, which are all electric drive, they use lithium.
While technically correct, there is a dirty little secret, CA driven, going on here. It is called COMPLIANCE..

An interesting read in USA May 9th issue, in summary.

CA mandates that if you sell more than 60,000 vehicles per year in CA the manufacturer must sell for a competitive price, a purely electric drive vehicle. Hybrids like the Prius don't count nor do CNG vehicles. So Ford makes the all electric Focus selling something like 560 of them last year and only because of the over $10,000 of rebates from the govt and Ford. Ditto the Leaf, Spark, Volt and Toyota RAV. Guess who is paying for this largesse? Fiat estimates their little electric 500 will lose $10,000 per vehicle, all out of Fiat's pocket

Tesla just reported an $11M profit for the quarter, but wait a minute. Tesla gets govt ZEV credits that can then be auctioned to other automakers to offset their non ZEV vehicles. The company income from such sales came to $68M in the quarter or 12% of revenue.

Of course CA won't allow any new power plants to be built to supply ready kilowatts for these all electric vehicles so the CA environment is really saved now! And the State wonders why it is in hock.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:30 PM   #91
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Sunchaser,

In defense of California, they are doing what the rest of the country needs to do. Back in 1971 California was phasing out leaded gas and I as a hot rodder back then didn't agree, but as we all now know lead is a killer and boy has the air cleaned up over LA over the years. Now we are on a balancing act with CO2 emissions that can be addressed today by the private automobile's phasing out of gasoline use in favor of electric.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:37 PM   #92
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Sunchaser,

In defense of California, they are doing what the rest of the country needs to do. Back in 1971 California was phasing out leaded gas and I as a hot rodder back then didn't agree, but as we all now know lead is a killer and boy has the air cleaned up over LA over the years. Now we are on a balancing act with CO2 emissions that can be addressed today by the private automobile's phasing out of gasoline use in favor of electric.
I know that the sun rises and sets on CA but it was the EPA and Ed Muskie that were the main driving forces for removal of tetraethyl lead from automotive gasoline. Clair Patterson (nope he wasn't born or educated in CA), from Cal Tech who was the leading researcher on using Pb for dating techniques, stumbled upon TEL issues as he was putting ages onto various fossils and artifacts. Even in the 1940s TEL issues and its health harms were getting notice. Ten years after the fact I knew and worked with people from the University of Cincinnati who were Patterson's TEL industry sponsored opponents during hearings in Washington.

Oh BTW, where does the power come from to fuel the all electric cars? Phasing out gasoline - news to me and the rest of the world. The real moneymaker and fuel saver will be a hybrid diesel Rabbit or Passat and their clones, now there is an idea worth pursuing, as it already is.
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:24 PM   #93
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....

Of course CA won't allow any new power plants to be built to supply ready kilowatts for these all electric vehicles so the CA environment is really saved now! And the State wonders why it is in hock.
Where do you get your information?

Last time I checked Status of All Projects CA brought 57 new power plants online since 6/27/01 for a total of 19.885 GW of capacity. They brought 3 new plants online 5/1/2013 with 2.11 GW of capacity, 5 plants came online in 2012 with 902 MW of capacity. There are currently 9 power plants under construction which will provide 3.9 GW of capacity and 3 of these are scheduled to go online later in 2013. There are also 12 power plants that have been approved and are in pre-construction which will add 4.289 GW. Plus 8 new power plants projects in the review process which if approved and built would provide 4.135 GW of capacity.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:28 PM   #94
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Last time I checked Status of All Projects CA brought 57 new power plants online since 6/27/01 for a total of 19.885 GW of capacity. .
You could not be more correct, I was pulling Bob's chain. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:41 PM   #95
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You could not be more correct, I was pulling Bob's chain. Sorry for the confusion.
Why does my chain need to be pulled? lol

I'm still drinking the KoolAid searching out all the info I can find on the GreenLine 33. One thing for sure, the future will see a large used market at the rate they are selling new, and these owners then upgrading to the larger 40' or 46'. I like the 40' and it is within my budget, but it isn't even close to the efficiency of the 33' single engine.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:47 PM   #96
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One thing for sure, the future will see a large used market at the rate they are selling new, and these owners then upgrading to the larger 40' or 46'.
Three Questions:
  • Bob, what do you guess the larger vessels overall performance to be North of the 38th //, if venturing North would make a difference
  • Normal cruising range at 6 to 7 knots
  • What do you see about the vessel that could be improved
A few years ago I was cruising in Finland and the vessel's owner was remarking on Slovenia's/Baltic countries build capabilities. Then they were importing FRP hulls, primarily sail, for finishing into Scandinavian countries to improve upon fit and finish - that was 7 years ago so it appears things have changed
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:11 PM   #97
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Three Questions:
  • Bob, what do you guess the larger vessels overall performance to be North of the 38th //, if venturing North would make a difference
  • Normal cruising range at 6 to 7 knots
  • What do you see about the vessel that could be improved
A few years ago I was cruising in Finland and the vessel's owner was remarking on Slovenia's/Baltic countries build capabilities. Then they were importing FRP hulls, primarily sail, for finishing into Scandinavian countries to improve upon fit and finish - that was 7 years ago so it appears things have changed
Maybe it hasn't changed as some boating journalists commented that the joinery wasn't as good as they thought it could be. For the price I'd accept that shortcoming. The smallest (33') has a B certification so deemed OK in Beaufort 8, 40 kt winds and 25' seas. The videos I've watched shows it performing in a sea state close to 8, so I'd feel comfortable off shore California to the PNW and Desolation Sound, BC.

As far as improvements, when they first splashed in 2009, lithium cells were still very expensive so they employed only 11.5 Kw bank which is good for 20 nm @ 4 kt. Of course I could just add to it, but would want a midship position below the water line. An added 36.4 Kw of LiFePO4 cells would add 750 lbs of weight and cost $9K. Together, the 4 kt range would increase to over 80 nm, not bad IMHO.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:18 PM   #98
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You could not be more correct, I was pulling Bob's chain. Sorry for the confusion.
No problem, just trying to set the record straight. Nothing wrong with pulling Bob's chain.

Quote:
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Why does my chain need to be pulled? lol

I'm still drinking the KoolAid searching out all the info I can find on the GreenLine 33. One thing for sure, the future will see a large used market at the rate they are selling new, and these owners then upgrading to the larger 40' or 46'. I like the 40' and it is within my budget, but it isn't even close to the efficiency of the 33' single engine.
I like the layout of the 40' much better than the 33'. Mainly because I like 2 cabins and a dry bath. One thing I was wondering is where would you put the dinghy? The roof is covered with solar panels so I think you'd need a transom davit. I searched their site and couldn't find anything about a davit. I wish they offered a non-hybrid version so you could see what you're paying for the electric motor, lithium batteries and solar panels. I think your paying a lot for 20 NM electric range. The diesel is doing all the heavy lifting. I'm also nervous about the unconventional hull.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:29 PM   #99
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I like the layout of the 40' better but not at the cost of efficiency. Davits would have to arch high and have a long aft overhang to work with the lowering stern. I would go with a full inflatable instead of a RIB dinghy. A perfect candidate for the dinghy would be the Takacat Lite. LITE SERIES - Takacat.com
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:02 PM   #100
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Maybe it hasn't changed as some boating journalists commented that the joinery wasn't as good as they thought it could be. For the price I'd accept that shortcoming. \
During three years in Berlin, I cruised Germany (a great secret) and attended the Dusseldorf show when the Greenline 33 was introduced. The joinery, while modern and a bit processed, was just fine. True, it didn't have the richness of a traditional yacht, but considering all the new ideas incorporated into the design, I don't think it was their intended mission to deliver anything but what they did. We got to know the owner of a large boat rental company who was a life-time boater, and claimed to be demo-ing the 33 as a high-end rental. When I asked later about his evaluation, he had a lot of praise for the boat, noting that it was far too capable for even a high-end rental cruiser. Of course, it's only opinion.
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