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Old 03-06-2012, 01:40 PM   #1
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Sleved cylinder Knocks

When I did the rebuild of the top end I was hoping to take care of a slight knock.

When The motor was torn down I found that the number 8 cylinder had a sleeve in it and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.

If you look at the nearest cylinder in the photo you can see more carbon built up around the top edge.

After I got it running I opened the injector and the knock went away.

She has been running with*that knock since 92 I guess it will just be that way.

Point being that if it sounds like an injector knock doesn't always mean it is.

Dang!!!

SD
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:56 PM   #2
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:
When I did the rebuild of the top end I was hoping to take care of a slight knock.

When The motor was torn down I found that the number 8 cylinder had a sleeve in it and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.

She has been running with*that knock since 92 I guess it will just be that way.

SD
Not in my engine it wouldn't.

32nd of an inch is quite a bit.* Why didn't you fix it when you had it apart.*That thing is gonna break it is just a matter of when. *Did you check to see if they make that sleeve with different heights?* What is holding that sleeve down?* Is it going up an down?* Can't be it would break the seal at the bottom if it hasn't already.*
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:11 PM   #3
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Sleved cylinder Knocks

The first reason is in order to fix it I would have to cut The cabin apart. The block is to wide to come out any other way.

When I put a new roof on the boat I found where a large section was removed to install the motor.

It is the second motor in her or at least the major portion there of.

She sank in 92 and the motor was rebuilt . Apparently with a reconditioned block.

Looking at it.**There didn't seem to be any indication of it moving. None that I or the mechanic helping me could see.

The biggest reason is cost I just don't have the money right now. And I am thinking about a total repower next fall.

We didn't really notice the issue until we were ready to put it back together again. And we were not sure what the problems if any it is causing.

It has always had the knock it does go away after she gets warmed up.

At least to barley noticeable.

Cat does make a different head gasket for a sleeved engine so I think I will try the different gasket. The openings around the cylinder is bigger on the sleeved engine gasket. Do you think it will help?

Well I only have to take down one side of the engine this time.

SD

*



-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 03:27:55 PM


-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 03:31:51 PM
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:44 PM   #4
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

I'm not sure the engine would have to had come out.* Will the oil pan come off of the bottom or even just lifting the engine a bit?* I'm not certain that it could not have been replace from the top with out removing the oil pan.* That would depend what kind of sealing ring it has on the bottom.* If it is a rubber O ring I'm thinking it would have been easy.* But maybe not.

My guess is the knocking is coming from carbon build up at the gap.* The real question is what keeps the head gasket from blowing out there and what stops any thing from going down into the oil?* There is no seal there.* The seal comes from the sleeve sticking out proud (called protuberance )*of the head a couple of thousands of an inch.* That is what seals the sleeve to the head gasket.* I'm surprised it doesn't wash diesel into the oil pan and water jacket.

RickB can jump in here or Forklift any time now.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:57 PM   #5
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

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JD wrote:
I'm not sure the engine would have to had come out.* Will the oil pan come off of the bottom or even just lifting the engine a bit?* I'm not certain that it could not have been replace from the top with out removing the oil pan.* That would depend what kind of sealing ring it has on the bottom.* If it is a rubber O ring I'm thinking it would have been easy.* But maybe not.

My guess is the knocking is coming from carbon build up at the gap.* The real question is what keeps the head gasket from blowing out there and what stops any thing from going down into the oil?* There is no seal there.* The seal comes from the sleeve sticking out proud (called protuberance )*of the head a couple of thousands of an inch.* That is what seals the sleeve to the head gasket.* I'm surprised it doesn't wash diesel into the oil pan and water jacket.

RickB can jump in here or Forklift any time now.
*If you look at the photo you will see that the gasket comes right to the edge of the cylinder walls. I think it is sealed by the head torqued to the block. I am going to first try the new head gasket. Just to be sure I don't blow*it. Like I said the gasket for the sleeved engine just has bigger holes than the one for non sleeved engines. Cat said it will not make* any difference as to how it seals.

SD

*
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:10 PM   #6
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Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:JD wrote:
I'm not sure the engine would have to had come out.* Will the oil pan come off of the bottom or even just lifting the engine a bit?* I'm not certain that it could not have been replace from the top with out removing the oil pan.* That would depend what kind of sealing ring it has on the bottom.* If it is a rubber O ring I'm thinking it would have been easy.* But maybe not.

My guess is the knocking is coming from carbon build up at the gap.* The real question is what keeps the head gasket from blowing out there and what stops any thing from going down into the oil?* There is no seal there.* The seal comes from the sleeve sticking out proud (called protuberance )*of the head a couple of thousands of an inch.* That is what seals the sleeve to the head gasket.* I'm surprised it doesn't wash diesel into the oil pan and water jacket.

RickB can jump in here or Forklift any time now.
*If you look at the photo you will see that the gasket comes right to the edge of the cylinder walls. I think it is sealed by the head torqued to the block. I am going to first try the new head gasket. Just to be sure I don't blow*it. Like I said the gasket for the sleeved engine just has bigger holes than the one for non sleeved engines. Cat said it will not make* any difference as to how it seals.

SD

*

*"Cat does make a different head gasket for a sleeved engine so I think I will try the different gasket. The openings around the cylinder is bigger on the sleeved engine gasket. Do you think it will help?"

Is the whole engine sleeved or just the one cylinder?

What came off when you tore it down?*What gasket is in there now? *Did you tell CAT what you found when you tore it down?* Certainly CAT didn't say just put it back together. *The gasket for sleeves needs the*sleeves to be proud or it will not seal no matter how hard you torque the head.


-- Edited by JD on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:12:53 PM
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:21 PM   #7
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Sleved cylinder Knocks

The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. Not sure I know what you are talking about. The gasket for a sleeved engine has a wider opening than a gasket for a non sleeved engine. There is only one sleeved cylinder on my engine.

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:22:13 PM
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:34 PM   #8
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:

When The motor was torn down I found that the number 8 cylinder had a sleeve in it and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.

The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. There is only one sleeved cylinder on my engine.
Which one is correct?

why only one hole sleeved? It is difficult to believe someone would only sleeve one hole. If nothing else it makes for weird head gasketing.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:44 PM   #9
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

There was only one cylinder sleeved.

Looked to be a reworked block. There was also some brazing on the water side.

As to the wierd gasketing do you think the gasket for a sleeved motor will be OK?

SD
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:45 PM   #10
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Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:
The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. Not sure I know what you are talking about. The gasket for a sleeved engine has a wider opening than a gasket for a non sleeved engine. There is only one sleeved cylinder on my engine.

SD



-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:22:13 PM
*Now I'* confused.* In your first post you said "and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.".* Now you are saying "The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. ".* So which is it?

If it is even then you have one problem if it is down 1/32" of an inch you have a different problem.

I'm guessing that the reason for one sleeve is that it either blew a piston or*tore up*the cylinder and the correct fix was a new block but this was the fix of choice.

If you have the non sleeve gasket in there and that was what it was running on then I would let sleeping dogs lie.* Especially if you are going to re power it next year anyway.


-- Edited by JD on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:48:36 PM
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:48 PM   #11
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
JD wrote:skipperdude wrote:
The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. Not sure I know what you are talking about. The gasket for a sleeved engine has a wider opening than a gasket for a non sleeved engine. There is only one sleeved cylinder on my engine.

SD



-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:22:13 PM
*Now I'* confused.* In your first post you said "and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.".* Now you are saying "The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. ".* So which is it?

If it is even then you have one problem if it is down 1/32" of an inch you have a different problem.

I'm guessing that the reason for one sleeve is that it either blew a piston or*tore up*the cylinder and the correct fix was a new block but this was the fix of choice.

* Sleeves run flush with the top of the block. My one cylindre #8 is the one with the recessed sleeve, and only that cylinder is sleeved
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:51 PM   #12
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

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skipperdude wrote:
*Sleeves run flush with the top of the block. My one cylindre #8 is the one with the recessed sleeve, and only that cylinder is sleeved
*So all of the block is sleeved and just number 8 is the problem sleeve because it is to short by 1/32".* Is that correct?* What gasket came out when you tore it down and what is in there now?
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:00 PM   #13
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Sleved cylinder Knocks

No.**Just #8 is sleeved The rest of the block is not sleeved.**The gasket was the one for the regular unsleeved 3208.**The 3208 is not a sleeved engine.

The gasket now in the motor is the one for an unsleeved motor.

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 05:02:14 PM
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:03 PM   #14
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

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skipperdude wrote:
No.**Just #8 is sleeved and the gasket was the one for the regular unsleeved 3208.**The 3208 is not a sleeved engine.
*If you have the non sleeve gasket in there and that was what it was running on then I would let sleeping dogs lie.* Especially if you are going to re power it next year anyway.

RickB. Comments.

*
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:22 PM   #15
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

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JD wrote:RickB. Comments.
Between the brazing and only one hole with a sleeve and it knocks I would just run the darn thing, stick close to a tow, and hope for the best until the repower.

If it ran like that for the past X many years with the same symptoms I guess it could do it for another year or so. This does beg the question of why the overheating or whatever lead to the partial rebuild in the first place though.

I would just run it and not put any more money in it.

I am curious about how that liner got pressed in too far. Was it actually pressed in and just accepted that way or did a partial piston siezure pull it down? Or? Is it loose? Can you pull it back with a standoff and puller?

That engine definitely ain't right but that doesn't mean it won't run for a while.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:11 AM   #16
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

You might install a solid copper piece of wire on top of the cylinder that is thicker than the 1/32 gap , that will crush down as the head is torqued down.

This will hold the cylinder from lifting and falling , if that is the noise.
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:47 AM   #17
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

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You might install a solid copper piece of wire on top of the cylinder that is thicker than the 1/32 gap , that will crush down as the head is torqued down.

This will hold the cylinder from lifting and falling , if that is the noise.
*I like that Fred.* But in his case he is probably better off letting it be.* It runs why take the head off again.* That would have maybe worked when he had the head off the first time.* A little shade tree, no a lot shade tree but it could work.
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:54 AM   #18
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
FF wrote:
You might install a solid copper piece of wire on top of the cylinder that is thicker than the 1/32 gap , that will crush down as the head is torqued down.

This will hold the cylinder from lifting and falling , if that is the noise.
If that movement caused the "noise", after 40 revolutions the "noise" would cease. As would the engine:smile: I say run it.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:19 AM   #19
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
RickB wrote:*This does beg the question of why the overheating or whatever lead to the partial rebuild in the first place though.
I am curious about how that liner got pressed in too far. Was it actually pressed in and just accepted that way or did a partial piston siezure pull it down? Or? Is it loose? Can you pull it back with a standoff and puller?

*

It didn't seem loose, It looked like it had been in that position for a long time, all though I was able to move the piston in the cylinder. not much but it did move a little when I tried.

The knock isn't loud.**Most people may not even notice it.

Looking at ways of installing a sky light to be able to remove it come fall.

SD
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:35 AM   #20
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:It didn't seem loose, It looked like it had been in that position for a long time, all though I was able to move the piston in the cylinder. not much but it did move a little when I tried.
If it was loose enough to feel it would have self-destructed a long time ago.

The piston movement is something to think about though ... how did you move it?

If it moved and the crank didn't turn at all there is either play in the wrist pin or big end bearing and that isn't good, especially if it is the wrist pin.
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