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Old 03-07-2012, 09:49 AM   #21
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

I moved it side to side not up and down. I didn't use a tool, just with my fingers. The rest were firm in place. It took a bit of pressure to get it to move. but it did move slightly. Enough to say it moved.

SD
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:02 PM   #22
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Interesting post you have going here.* I have never seen a single cylinder sleeve job done on*a 3208 CAT diesel before.*

Although it isn't uncommon in some*gas engine blocks.* I'm into Mopar car restoration and it's important to a cars value to keep the correct*numbers matching engine block and transmission*with the car.* If you scatter the original engine, they will often install a sleeve to replace a bad jug.* Crazy but true.

It will be interesting to hear how this turns out.

Good luck

Larry B
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:17 PM   #23
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

here's my theory and I'm sticking to it.** The issue in question is the knock, the sleeve is a separate and unrelated issue.**

My sleeve theory is that the sleeve is evidence that something bad happened to that cylinder and the block was in otherwise good shape.* And this is Alaska, so maybe the cost and time to ship a new block made the refurbishing with a*sleeve more attractive.** The 3208 is not a sleeved block.* So, a sleeve repair would not need to be replaceable.* That being the case, maybe the sleeve was interference shrink fit pressed.* In the process it slipped too deep, and*warmed to stick in that position before it could be raised.**In this scenario, it would be impossibe to*move and cause no future problems so it was used as is.* If the sleeve were moving, there would be visible evidence.* If it were sliding up and down 0.030", by now it would have worn to the point of falling out.

The knock:* SD said that before the knock was worst when cold and got quieter as the engine warmed.* That would be what I would expect,.* As the engine warms the bearing journals warm, and swell.* As a result bearing clearances close and knocks get quieter.

My theory for the root cause of the knock is rack injection timing.**Perhaps*the knocking cylinder just needs its fuel timing retarded a slight amount.*** Al motors have a certain amount of inplay in their bearings, but injection fuel a little early in the cycle should have a very similar effect as preignition (spark knock) in a gasser.* This reverses the load on the bearings and causes the knock.

Back when I was a broke college student.* I had a 1964 Buick Skylark with a warped head, that I was trying to fix on the cheap.* I pulled the heads, had them surfaced and the valves ground. and put it back together.* My dad warned me, doing the heads without touching the rings might cause it to start burning oil.* The worn rings have a harder time sealing against the higher compression allowed by the tighter valves.* Turns out, he was right.

FEEL FREE TO SHOOT HOLES IN MY THEORY.* AFTER ALL, IT IS MINE AND I'M STICKING TO IT.

*
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:42 PM   #24
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Good theory Capt. Craig and I'm with you on all of it until you got to the root cause.

My root cause theory is worn wrist pins, plain and simple.* As the engine warms up metal expands and the noise quiets down.* And I'm sticking to it too!!*

There is no way that sleeve is moving around.* It would have*ground the hole out by now.

Larry B
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:09 PM   #25
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Larry,* I think we aggree.* I didn't mean to imply that the knock wasn't a wrist pin or maybe a*rod journal.* What I theorize is that fuel timing is making it louder and more apparent than it would otherwise be.

So,* The boat runs, the beer is cold (it's Alaska), and the*fish are biting, lets fish.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:55 AM   #26
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Sleved cylinder Knocks

My guess is that the 1/32 clearance between the sleeve and deck of the block adds enough additional clearance volume to change the compression ratio of that cylinder. The different compression ratio creates the knock, as the optimum injection timing of that cylinder is different. Drive it and forget it, nothing bad will happen.

Bill


-- Edited by Island Cessna on Friday 9th of March 2012 02:01:53 AM
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:31 AM   #27
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
Capn Craig wrote:
My theory for the root cause of the knock is rack injection timing.**Perhaps*the knocking cylinder just needs its fuel timing retarded a slight amount.***

*
*Cap'tn. Is there any way to lessen the ammount of fuel that the injector is supplying to the cylinder.

I know the pressure can be adjusted but wouldn't that just cause the injector to fire early still supplying the same ammount of fuel.

SD
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Old 03-09-2012, 07:52 PM   #28
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
Island Cessna wrote:
My guess is that the 1/32 clearance between the sleeve and deck of the block adds enough additional clearance volume to change the compression ratio of that cylinder. The different compression ratio creates the knock, as the optimum injection timing of that cylinder is different. Drive it and forget it, nothing bad will happen.

Bill



-- Edited by Island Cessna on Friday 9th of March 2012 02:01:53 AM
That's a good one too Bill !!*

My slip neighbor says, "It's a CAT for god sakes!! They rattle like my Aunt Matilda's dentures."* "Drive it and quit complaining!!"*

LMAO

Larry B
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Old 03-10-2012, 04:13 AM   #29
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
Island Cessna wrote:
The different compression ratio creates the knock, as the optimum injection timing of that cylinder is different.
How does that work?

Advance or retard timing to correct the issue?
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Old 03-10-2012, 10:31 PM   #30
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

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RickB wrote:Island Cessna wrote:
The different compression ratio creates the knock, as the optimum injection timing of that cylinder is different.
How does that work?

Advance or retard timing to correct the issue?

*If that's the cause of the knock there is nothing you can do about it. Injection timing is one setting for the whole motor. Time it right for the other 7, and live with the knock for this one.

Bill
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:48 AM   #31
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Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
Island Cessna wrote:If that's the cause of the knock there is nothing you can do about it. Injection timing is one setting for the whole motor. Time it right for the other 7, and live with the knock for this one.
Back to my question that was not answered by you or Craig, how does timing correct the "knock" in that cylinder?

Assume that each cylinder could be timed independently, which way would the timimg be altered, advance or retard?

Why would the increase in cylinder volume create the knock?

What would timing do to eliminate the knock?


-- Edited by RickB on Sunday 11th of March 2012 06:50:31 AM
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:09 AM   #32
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

I'm thinking that less volume in the one cylinder would encourage a "knock". We presumably have more volume. Excessive clearance on a wrist pin or the rod bearing could be the source. I have seen wrist pins " knock" for years and have never actually seen one come apart. "Piston slap" is possible. If the piston had enough wear between the skirt and cylinder wall- upon firing- it would pop the skirt against the wall making a knock. For peace of mind, why not pull a couple of SOS (Cat's oil samples) bottles through the summer to trend out any wear pattern. I would do this without changing the oil. I could send you some with the gun (you send me $) and hose. You pull a clean sample, fill out the form and drop the provided shipping container in the mail. Cat knows what each bearing, bushing and piston is made of and would know the acceptable PPM for each. IMO, a failing rod bearing would be the only problem that would justify shutting the engine down.
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Old 03-11-2012, 08:11 AM   #33
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

The knock could be from any number of issues. I am just curious how the increase in cylinder volume can cause a knock and how changing the timing in some unspecified direction would eliminate it. Besides, the last word was that the sleeve was flush, not inset, so there is no volume increase anyway.

3208s are known for grenading due to failed wrist pins. A quick Google search will turn up lots of examples.

But diagnosing an engine from thousands of miles away is beyond my skills. I just want to know about the timing and lower compression knock thing.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:12 AM   #34
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Quote:
RickB wrote:
The knock could be from any number of issues. I am just curious how the increase in cylinder volume can cause a knock and how changing the timing in some unspecified direction would eliminate it. Besides, the last word was that the sleeve was flush, not inset, so there is no volume increase anyway.

3208s are known for grenading due to failed wrist pins. A quick Google search will turn up lots of examples.

But diagnosing an engine from thousands of miles away is beyond my skills. I just want to know about the timing and lower compression knock thing.
When then I suggest you Google THAT to get an answer. Instead of putting so much effort into making me wrong. I was a mechanic/ then sales for our Cat dealer for 7 years in my previous life. And I don't recall a 3208 "wrist pin issue". I suspect if you did a Google search on "bicycle chain failures" you could turn up lots of examples of that to. Why don't you participate on the things you are familiar/ experienced with. Have you ever pulled a head off of a 3208? I know SkipperDude has......
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:46 PM   #35
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

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When then I suggest you Google THAT to get an answer. Instead of putting so much effort into making me wrong.
I don't know why you are getting your knickers in a twist, I wasn't even commenting on anything you posted.And you flatter yourself if you think I put any effort whatsoever into making you right or wrong. Find another argument to make with someone else, please.

I would just like an explanation from the two guys who said increasing the volume would create a knock and altering the timing will cure it.

It really is that simple and you and your insecurities are not part of this* topic so keep out or take it to OTDE.
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:56 PM   #36
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

He he he.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:22 PM   #37
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Now now boys, play nicely.
Googled "wrist pin/Cat" (aka gudgeon pin), a number of hits for Cat engines, especially failed retainers either end of the pin, with post disaster fragments found in the oil pan(sump),plus horror stories of pistons exiting the side of the block.
Returning to the actual issue, the "balance of probabilities" suggests a nexus between the noise and the sleeve,why not just keep running it until something really goes wrong or you repower, especially as it seems to be a very minor noise. Alternatively for abundant precaution, re-sleeve the cylinder. BruceK
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Old 03-12-2012, 03:59 AM   #38
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

What will re-sleeving do besides the obvious?

Obvious = it will require removing the boat from around the engine. At which point a complete rebuild should eliminate all the issues.

I'd still love to know more about the compression/timing thing but it looks like that will remain as mysterious as the noise.
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:53 AM   #39
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Not much choice in timing a 3208 , its done by pushing a pin into a hole and locking the injection pump when it fits in.

Might try a higher open pressure on one injector to delay the fuel squirt.

IF you want to have a non throw away 3208 , you need to find its daddy , the CAT 1160.

There were too expensive to make as all the cylinders have factory replaceable sleives , and the skool buss folks got new buses from the highway trust fund money dump, for 10% or less of cost.

So rebuilding was never an option chosen.

IF you want a 150,000 mile 1160 (50 miles to an hour for conversion, so 3000 hour engine ) for a grand , contact me .

Engine is in Arcadia FL. Use your old manifolds and marine tranny.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:53 AM   #40
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RE: Sleved cylinder Knocks

Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts on this subject.

No real definitive answers. the general consensus is to run it and fix it when it really breaks. So that is going to be the approach*I take on this.

It is more of a loud tap than it is a knock. I think I can live with it.

Everything else on the boat is first class and top notch.

I don't think I could buy a new boat that is in better shape.

I'm Good.

Thanks.

SD

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