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Old 01-03-2013, 12:04 PM   #141
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A skeg (an arm extending from the rear of the keel to support the rudder and protect the propeller) is also desirable.

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Old 01-03-2013, 01:45 PM   #142
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Mahal-to my knowledge, the only KK 58 with a single engine is Hull #1, and I am pretty sure it does not have a wing engine. All the 58's since, are twins with the shafts fully enclosed in the skegs.

I have always thought the concept of a wing engine as on the Nordhavns was pretty silly. As was noted earlierby Tad, they are hardly capable of maintaining any speed or navigability in more than flat seas. The 57 Nord had a 62 hp Yanmar with a folding Sailprop in a 120,000 lb boat. If they have upsized them, maybe they are a bit more effective.

If you are a twin engine guy, and like Marin I am, at least have two real engines.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:23 AM   #143
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The 57 Nord had a 62 hp Yanmar with a folding Sailprop in a 120,000 lb boat. If they have upsized them, maybe they are a bit more effective.

One hp per ton will move the boat and get you home.Needs a better prop tho.

The big advantage is the vessel is operational and proceding under her own power , so a tow would not involve salvage.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:19 AM   #144
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I note that get home engines for recent vintage N55s are 70 HP and N62s are 80 HP. This is plenty of HP to get home. Few serious single engine MV blue water cruisers today are without a "big" get home setup. Dashew's single engine FPB 64 has a 7 knot get home.

The well heeled owners of these vessels are not persuaded to follow the mantra of the TF single engine only supporters. Those 1%ers march to a blue water risk averse drum, which is not necessarily how they became 1%ers.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:55 AM   #145
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I note that get home engines for recent vintage N55s are 70 HP and N62s are 80 HP. This is plenty of HP to get home. Few serious single engine MV blue water cruisers today are without a "big" get home setup. Dashew's single engine FPB 64 has a 7 knot get home.

The well heeled owners of these vessels are not persuaded to follow the mantra of the TF single engine only supporters. Those 1%ers march to a blue water risk averse drum, which is not necessarily how they became 1%ers.
I'd love to know what that means and WHAT the "mantra" you have guessed from a few one liners to a short paragraph is of the TF single engine supporters....
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:01 AM   #146
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The N57 I just did a delivery on had a 80hp wing with a rather large folding prop, it was off centerline about 4'and behind the main 10'. The Owner said it had a demonstrated ability to be able to push the boat at 4kts. The boat steered ok but docking would be tricky.. the thruster would be used to get the boat in in close quarters. The thing I liked about the 57 was the hydraulics could be ran from the wing engine, maneuvering was done with the wing engine at 2000 rpm to run the bow and stern thruster. This should help the wing to live a longer life as it gets used often and will not die due to non use.

Personally I think this is the only way to equip a passagemaker, true twins are more difficult to maintain due to space ( my current boat is a twin so I am not just hypothesizing ). The ease of maneuvering is good... but I could with confidence get the N57 with thruster in places I would not want to try to place my 45' SeaRay with twins. The access on the N57 for systems was fantastic ( except for the stbd stabilizer ). This N57 is slated to go around South America via Cape Horn in the future and I hope to be aboard as I have total confidence in its ability and system. ....I will send pics!
HOLLYWOOD

as a side note:
Every once in a while the Dashew boats are mentioned... While I give high regards to the Dashews for their voyages, sailboat designs, writing abilities, insights.. bla bla. bla.. I PERSONALLY think their power boats are not remotely pratical and have the at anchor use comparable to sitting on the top of a container (with the exception of I do like the aluminum part ). The Diesel Ducks also fall into this category. Now before some get their shorts in a knot. I am not saying that I think they are bad passage making designs... just that at anchor you perch on top of the deck like a bunch of rednecks on a motor home at a NASCAR race. Little thought was given to deck use at anchor.
Now that I have offended NASCAR fans, the Dashews, owners of Diesel Ducks, twin engine owners,
Happy New Year
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:19 AM   #147
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Mark, that strut from the keel to the bottom of the rudder is usually called a "shoe".

I'm not sure the word "skeg" is applicable to the Krogen twins. It's my feeling/opinion that a skeg is a device devoted mostly or (usually) completely to directional stability as in the drop down fin aft in a kayak through a slot like a centerboard on a sailboat. Or a small or smallish keel/finlike extension along the center line of an OB well aft to (again) give the boat more directional stability. What are the little fins on racing OBs just aft of amidships called? Those boats would just slide sideways w/o them. They are undoubtably for directional stability and I think they are called skegs.

As to the big Krogen's keel-like things that carry the prop shafts ... I see no reason to call them anything other than keels. Much shorter than typical and not on CL but they perform the duties of a keel ... exclusively and completely in a dedicated manner. And if they were missing (open shafts as in a typical trawler) a keel in it's usual place would be necessary. If the Krogen's keel/skegs were w/o prop shafts, rudders and props they could, perhaps be called skegs I suppose but as built I see them as keels.


Re Tom's post I was a bit foggy as to his specific meaning but I'll bet he's refering to the misconception that one is safe as a bug in a rug w a single.
When you buy a trawler and don't shop till you drop in a quest to get a twin you'll probably wind up w a single. Without much thought too as it's not easy to "wind up" w a twin just as you won't wind up w a full disp hull trawler as there are even fewer of them than twin engined trawlers. So there are features of our boats that we didn't necessarily choose.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:25 AM   #148
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The thing I liked about the 57 was the hydraulics could be run from the wing engine, maneuvering was done with the wing engine at 2000 rpm to run the bow and stern thruster. This should help the wing to live a longer life as it gets used often and will not die due to non use.
.................................................. .................................................. ....

The ease of maneuvering is good... but I could with confidence get the N57 with thruster in places I would not want to try to place my 45' SeaRay with twins.
I had the opportunity to cruise parts of B.C. years ago aboard my friend's 57 Nordy. I experienced the operation of the wing engine & bow thruster (run from the hydraulic system) and was most impressed. (The windlass was also run by this system.) However, I never gave the increased life expectancy of the "wing" any thought. You're right! It's a great set up.

My biggest gripe about the boat was when standing at the foot of the bed in the forward stateroom, I could not close the door (slider) without scraping my heels!
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:21 PM   #149
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Personally I think this is the only way to Every once in a while the Dashew boats are mentioned... While I give high regards to the Dashews for their voyages, sailboat designs, writing abilities, insights.. bla bla. bla.. I PERSONALLY think their power boats are not remotely pratical and have the at anchor use comparable to sitting on the top of a container (with the exception of I do like the aluminum part ). The Diesel Ducks also fall into this category. Now before some get their shorts in a knot. I am not saying that I think they are bad passage making designs... just that at anchor you perch on top of the deck like a bunch of rednecks on a motor home at a NASCAR race. Little thought was given to deck use at anchor.
Now that I have offended NASCAR fans, the Dashews, owners of Diesel Ducks, twin engine owners,
Happy New Year

Very true, the Dashew FPB 64 MVs are not designed to be superior dock queens. Their audience is a well heeled converted sail boater who has spent much time on blue water routes where dock queen niceties are not so nice. They are designed to take a roll over and come back up. With too much width and all the top heavy dock queen stuff so many of us like, recovery from a capsize would not be possible.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:48 PM   #150
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I find it interesting that much of the single Vs twin debate mentions the passagemakers. These are high availability single engine designs that have features like keel cooling, dry stack exhaust, and geared pump engines.

And, as its been mentioned they almost always have a "get home engine".

I find it ironic that most of the people arguing for single engine installations have boats that incorporate none of these high availability design features.

It seems that a great part of this argument is at least here on TF designed to justify to others (and possibly ourselves) what we already own.

Not meant to point fingers with that statement, I do my own justifying, in my own way. People have told me that my boat is a prissy dock queen, and a Bayliner to boot! I've justified my purchase by proving them wrong, simply by going pacces and doing things that they probably thought you need a Nordhavn for.

The single engine guys do the same thing every day. They go out in their boats and take them places that the twin engine crowd would cringe at, and they do it with full confidence in their engine. and you know what...

Just like me in my Bayliner, the single engine guys make it home safe and sound and wonder what all the fuss is about.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:55 PM   #151
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It seems that a great part of this argument is at least here on TF designed to justify to others (and possibly ourselves) what we already own.
Very true. It does get pretty testy on here though in such discussions. I haven't gotten used to that part of TF yet.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:16 PM   #152
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Very true. It does get pretty testy on here though in such discussions. I haven't gotten used to that part of TF yet.

I think I'll invite 2850bounty to join TF, that'll calm things down
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:01 PM   #153
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It seems that a great part of this argument is, at least here on TF, designed to justify to others (and possibly ourselves) what we already own.

People have told me that my boat is a prissy dock queen, and a Bayliner to boot! I've justified my purchase by proving them wrong, simply by going places and doing things that they probably thought you need a Nordhavn for.

Just like me in my Bayliner, the single engine guys make it home safe and sound and wonder what all the fuss is about.
Well said...
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:25 PM   #154
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I think I'll invite 2850bounty to join TF, that'll calm things down

Yeah, that'll calm things RIGHT down, Kev!
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:02 PM   #155
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There is no fuss.
Each and every time we go out. We take the lives of ourself and everyone aboard into our own hands.

Single or twin Shi+ happens.

It all depends on your comfort factor.

I have a single but that is what it is. I watch things close. Preventative maintenance is what it is all about. don't put it off do it now better yet Yesterday.

Hundreds and hundreds of hours and I have always made it home safe and sound under my own power.

No matter if it is commercial fishing in Alaska's waters or just cruising.

The sea is a harsh mistress for sure.

Get the boat that best decreases the pucker factor for you.
There is no better or best.

Just boats.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:14 PM   #156
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I find it interesting that much of the single Vs twin debate mentions the passagemakers. These are high availability single engine designs that have features like keel cooling, dry stack exhaust, and geared pump engines.

And, as its been mentioned they almost always have a "get home engine".

I find it ironic that most of the people arguing for single engine installations have boats that incorporate none of these high availability design features.

It seems that a great part of this argument is at least here on TF designed to justify to others (and possibly ourselves) what we already own.

Not meant to point fingers with that statement, I do my own justifying, in my own way. People have told me that my boat is a prissy dock queen, and a Bayliner to boot! I've justified my purchase by proving them wrong, simply by going pacces and doing things that they probably thought you need a Nordhavn for.

The single engine guys do the same thing every day. They go out in their boats and take them places that the twin engine crowd would cringe at, and they do it with full confidence in their engine. and you know what...

Just like me in my Bayliner, the single engine guys make it home safe and sound and wonder what all the fuss is about.
Can't speak for the other single guys but for me...I'll probably NEVER cruise more than 50-75 miles from civilization in my boat. There will always be Sea Tow or Boat US to get me home or out of minor dangerous situations or the USCG, even plenty of other boaters to help out.

If I planned to go further than Downeast Maine, the Bahamas and Cuba ...I would certainly look at all those features more seriously.....

But for now...just about every "accessory" past the long block (plus injectors/fuel pump) is easily fixed in minutes.....underway or at anchor/adrift (cause I watch the weather and don't go if it means getting beat up underway or working in the engine room.)...and If I don't feel like doing it to keep going...the complimentary assistance towing membership I get is worth it's weight in gold...
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:52 PM   #157
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The availability of help is dependent on where one boats, even in coastal waters. In Puget Sound and lower BC there are the usual Vessel Assist operators plus the Coast Guard plus a fair number of boats out and about most times of the year.

In these waters, BTW, the Canadian Coast Guard is much more likely to assist a boater than the USCG which these days is primarily a low-enforcement organization with boater assistance dispatched only in the event of immediate danger to life. The Canadian Coast Guard also has a very active and organized Auxiliary that the Coast Guard actually uses for assistance dispatch. As opposed to the USCG Auxiliary which in this area plays almost no role at all in anything other than law enforcement patrol functions. Moral: If you're going to break down, break down in BC.

But once one gets up the coast in BC help can be a long time coming. Depending on the location and the time of year, there may be few to no other boats around. And has been discussed in other threads, with the maze of narrow channels and passes, very deep water right up to the shoreline, and strong currents a breakdown can end up in a grounding unless assistance can arrive within minutes. But in many places waterborne assistance may be hours or even a day away.

Added to this is the high nature of the islands and coastal mountains, so communications can be spotty or non-existent unless one has satcom of some sort. When and if the day comes that we are able to take our boat up the Inside Passage we will most likely install satcom--- KVH/Intelsat or the equivalent. Not so much in anticipation of a boat breakdown--- we have two engines--- but for things like medical emergencies and so on.

I get the impression from the posts to this forum over the years that the eastern seaboard, and perhaps the Gulf, too, is pretty "settled" with many waterside communities, marine assistance operators, and, as evidenced by the photos, dead flat geography which must make line-of-sight and mobile phone communications extremely reliable.

On this coast, from Campbell River-Powell River on north for the 700-plus miles (as the raven flies, not as one's boat twists and turns) up through SE Alaska we would operate on the assumption that we are on our own with regards to taking action in the event of a breakdown or some other boat problem. Assuming one can make contact with the "outside," help will arrive eventually. But there are many scenarios in which "eventually" might as well be "not at all" at least as far as the boat is concerned.

This, I believe, is why we see-- from the air as well as from our small boat when we're halibut fishing up north--- so many boats making the run up or down the Passage traveling in pairs or groups. Even the commercial fishing boats do this.

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Old 01-04-2013, 05:02 PM   #158
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I think I'll invite 2850bounty to join TF, that'll calm things down
Yeah... he, Rick, Marin and I would make a great discussion.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:04 PM   #159
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There will always be Sea Tow or Boat US to get me home or out of minor dangerous situations or the USCG, even plenty of other boaters to help out.
Yeah, but finishing my vacation at a the end of a tow line isn't in my plan.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:07 PM   #160
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Yeah... he, Rick, Marin and I would make a great discussion.
Who the heck is 2850bounty?
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