Single vs Twin: It's Baaaaack!

[FlyWright]

As stated in a previous post.
They did 52,000 nautical miles, 7968 engine hours and burnt 96000 lts of diesel. (going around the world) In this time they slipped the boat 7 times ...Benn

Sounds like they're afraid of docking that single!! If they had twins, it'd be no problem!!

 

[FlyWright]

Makes me wonder why multiple-engined boats even bother to have towing insurance.

Don't try to make me feel guilty having a single-engined boat and somehow financially burdening you.

I was sure glad I had it when I sucked my anchor line into both props a couple of years ago! If I had a nice keel/skeg protected prop like you have, it might never have happened. Between the dive to release the anchor line, anchor retrieval and tow off the bank, my tow insurance saved me $1300.

Of course I learned a lot about how not to anchor that day! (It's especially nice to have a brother ready to photo-document your every mistake!! I can still hear him laughing from the flybridge! :lol: )

 

[markpierce]

I was sure glad I had it when I sucked my anchor line into both props a couple of years ago!

Al, an all-chain rode might have avoided the problem. But then, was that your stern anchor?

 

[Larry H]

Marin said "Added to this is the high nature of the islands and coastal mountains, so communications can be spotty or non-existent unless one has satcom of some sort."

Actually, this is not true at all. I have been up and down the Inside Passage waters from Seattle to Sitka, AK five times, And the Canada CG has excellent communications on all the major and most of the minor waterways. I have listened to and communicated with Canada Vessel Traffic by VHF the entire way with no blank spots at all.

There are at least two places that are not covered, and that is Knight Inlet above Glendale Cove and Princess Louisa Inlet. I have not been to the head of many of the other inlets that penetrate the coast, so there may be other gaps in coverage, but if one stays in the main inland passage, the Canadian CG is available by VHF almost all the time.

That is not to say that a rescue boat will be close, but the Canadian CG is good at requesting help for boats in trouble.

In SE Alaska, the USCG also has good to fair VHF coverage, but only fair to poor proximity to rescue boats. In SE AK, the CG can and will send a helio to evacuate injured persons. In SE AK, the locals can and will answer radio calls for help and provide what help they can. Most Alaskans would prefer to obtain help from other local boaters than the CG.

 

[BruceK]

BruceK the identifiers in my IG Manual are 10-13-000-003&4) has this:
"Freewheeling.
Under sail with the propeller turning, or at trolling speeds with one of 2 engines shut down, the design of the Velvet Drive gear maintains adequate cooling and lubrication"

A while back there was an extensive discussion on what constituted 'trolling' speed, I think 3-4 knots was the agreed figure

Just as well I kept the engine running at modest rpm then. during the overheat. I figured that was the safest course, for several reasons. Fortunately Bill (Kwajadiver) helped out with removing the offending thermostat.
That 3-4 knot figure suggests yacht/sailboats of the motor-sailor kind, like Zeston 36 etc, which have 100hp+ diesels, must need to do something with their shafts when purely sailing.I`m going to ask some guys I know with a Perkins 6354 what they do next opportunity I get.

 

[FlyWright]

Al, an all-chain rode might have avoided the problem. But then, was that your stern anchor?

Unfortunately, no it wasn't my stern anchor. I doubt I'll ever go all chain on FlyWright.

It was the direct result of a potent mix of equal parts of inattention and ignorance. I was paying more attention to fishing that I was to the shifting tides and the boat drifting into the shallows.

Now I always pull in any slack anchor line before engaging the trannies.

 

[markpierce]

... I was paying more attention to fishing ...

Perla's friends/relatives ask if we use our boat to fish. Answer: no, we normally go to a restaurant to consume fish, or cook a fish purchased from a grocery store. Don't object to eating fish caught, gutted, and cooked by others, either.

 

[Tidahapah]

Bruce ,
Most of them have feathering or folding props to minimise drag.
I know the Buzien 48 and 52 have folding props.
Cheers
Benn

 

[Tidahapah]

Al,
If I could print out the book I would. They spent a lot of time in and out of docks/slips, from the Med to the USA.
When you have a Gardner as a main engine you don't ever get worried.
Cheers
Benn

 

[psneeld]

So all those guys running the hundreds of single engine, no-thruster tugs on the Fraser River and up and down the BC coast have all got the wrong kind of boat?

I'll have to let them know the next time I talk to one.

yep...ask them....but just not straight transportation of barges...that's easy work...ask them about construction work of precision position holding. They probably would prefer twins...

I do that kind of work too.... just on a smaller scale. There''s a huge difference in single vs twin....I have done 100-150 foot barges....my personal high was rock barges with 750,000 pounds of rip-rap for around bridge pilings.

 

[Underway]

Makes me wonder why multiple-engined boats even bother to have towing insurance.

Don't try to make me feel guilty having a single-engined boat and somehow financially burdening you.

Twin owners don't typically have a specific tow policy. But my basic insurance policy has a one time tow dollar amount....which I don't need. I have yet to see a recreational twin at the end of a tow rope on the Great Lakes. Lots of singles...many loopers in clapped out "trawlers"....lots of sail boats being moved from open water into a slip.

 

[psneeld]

Twin owners don't typically have a specific tow policy. But my basic insurance policy has a one time tow dollar amount....which I don't need. I have yet to see a recreational twin at the end of a tow rope on the Great Lakes. Lots of singles...many loopers in clapped out "trawlers"....lots of sail boats being moved from open water into a slip.

Not where I come from and pretty much the whole Atlantic ICW....most twin owners I know have one assistance tower or the other and the real cruisers often have both.

I also tow many twins for various reasons...both inboards and outboards...go figure...

For $160-$170 the piece of mind is worth it they say.

 

[ksanders]

This thread sure makes entertaining reading!

So now its Ok to have a single engine because we have towing policies???

 

[SomeSailor]

I don't have twins. I have a pair of redundant singles.

 

[ksanders]

I don't have twins. I have redundant singles.

But do you have the required "SEA TOW" Get home engine???

So, when you're in Alaska, hours from help...

And you're on the windward side of an island with a 20 knot wind blowing...

And 100 feet offshore the water is 600' deep...

And you're a half mile from shore...

And your single engine goes out....

Yes... I have it... Call Sea Tow!!!

Or, yes... I have it... go below and fix your engine, after all it'll only take a few minutes. Times a wasting...

The funny thing is, and I'm laughing as I type this...

This is my my boating world. Pretty much every time I leave the harbor

 

[Anode]

 

[Nomad Willy]

Chip, at times you cut right to the core of most any issue. Well put and all else seems a bit like fly stuff.

And anchors should not be forgotten as they can keep one safe much of the time after loosing power. In Alaska this was'nt nearly as true as it is down here and in Florida it's probably even more true.

I'm going to try towing my second engine (same power as my boat) this next summer and see how that goes. Getting into the skiff in 5' seas won't be much fun though.

 

[ksanders]

Chip, at times you cut right to the core of most any issue. Well put and all else seems a bit like fly stuff.

And anchors should not be forgotten as they can keep one safe much of the time after loosing power. In Alaska this was'nt nearly as true as it is down here and in Florida it's probably even more true.

I'm going to try towing my second engine (same power as my boat) this next summer and see how that goes. Getting into the skiff in 5' seas won't be much fun though.

Eric

Your skiff is a great way to get your boat out of a dangerous situation in a pinch.

Dropping your anchor is also a great plan except it doesn't work most of the places I boat.

Anything you can do to buy time and keep out of harms way is good.

This whole debate is just good conversation and poking fun at online friends. We all know a single engine installation poses very little real life risk for coastal cruising.

But the conversation is still fun

 

[Underway]

Not where I come from and pretty much the whole Atlantic ICW....most twin owners I know have one assistance tower or the other and the real cruisers often have both.

I also tow many twins for various reasons...both inboards and outboards...go figure...

For $160-$170 the piece of mind is worth it they say.

...being that you're a tow boat operator, I'll take that pearl of wisdom with a grain of salt.

 

[SomeSailor]

But do you have the required "SEA TOW" Get home engine???

I probably should have stated that I have a PAIR of redundant singles.

If one fails... I will deploy the other.

 

[Larry M]

Since we have only one engine, no get home engine, no Sea Tow to call and no redundancy, Lena and I have decided to sell Hobo. We've seen the light. NOT! But we do have 4 anchors though.

 

[ksanders]

Since we have only one engine, no get home engine, no Sea Tow to call and no redundancy, Lena and I have decided to sell Hobo. We've seen the light. NOT! But we do have 4 anchors though.

As you post from Trinidad having ventured for several years and what, tens of thousands of miles on your "unreliable" single engine?

As I've said before this is great conversation but thats about it. Your voyages are proof that single engines are just fine.

Your voyages give the rest of us that are still locked into jobbs and schedules hope. Hope that we can do it when time allows, in our boats. You are proof that you do not need a Nordhavn to coastal cruise.

 

[Marin]

yep...ask them....but just not straight transportation of barges...that's easy work...ask them about construction work of precision position holding. They probably would prefer twins...

Well, we've been watching these guys do just that for a couple of decades now, here and up the coast in BC. Positioning docks, assembling and maneuvering huge log rafts, butting big chip barges into position for loading and unloading, maneuvering and holding dredges and spoils barges in position, etc. etc. etc. All with single engine tugs.

Carey and I watched a Fraser River tug precision-align a new 200-foot (approx) floating dock/breakwater in Ganges Marina a number of years ago. Towed the breakwater across the Strait of Georgia from where it had been manufactured up the Fraser and arrived after dark. Dropped the tow and then proceeded to push, nudge, coax and hold the thing into position so the guys on the dock could install the pins connecting it to the floating docks it was being attached to.

It was really impressive watching this single engine (IIRC it had a 16V-71) tug push here, scoot around to the other side and nudge there, then go and hold an end against the current so a pin could be installed, and so on until the dock was aligned and fastened into its final position. It is the single most impressive display of precise maneuvering I've seen to date by far. All with a single engine boat with a pneumatic transmission of some sort--we could hear it-- and no thruster in extremely confined water.

Although I didn't start using it myself at that time, that's perhaps the first time I realized what a wonderful tool power is when maneuvering a boat in close quarters.

We talked to the captain when he was done and fueling for the run back across the strait to the river. We complimented him on his handling of his tug and he thanked us but said that in reality this was one of the easier kinds of jobs they have. Usually they are doing the same sort of thing in terms of precision but contending with the strong current in the Fraser and with much more unwieldy and uncooperatve charges like log boom sections and chip barges. That, he said, is when it can get challenging. The one thing they'd done to this particular tug was install a Kort nozzle a few years before. That, he said, had made maneuvering a little more responsive and precise.

Not saying a twin wouldn't be beneficial in some situations but for what these tugs do day in and day out a single seems to work just fine. If a twin offered advantages over what they use today they'd have long since switched.

 

[Codger2]

The one thing they'd done to this particular tug was install a Kort nozzle a few years before. That, he said, had made maneuvering a little more responsive and precise.

I don't think the outcome would have been the same without the Kort nozzle. These guys are "good" but the nozzle covers up a multitude of screw ups.

 

[Codger2]

I don't think the outcome would have been the same without the Kort nozzle. These guys are "good" but the nozzle covers up a multitude of screw ups.

Kort Nozzle

 

[Marin]

I don't think the outcome would have been the same without the Kort nozzle. These guys are "good" but the nozzle covers up a multitude of screw ups.

Perhaps. There's no way to know. This crew had been doing this kind of work with the same boat for years before the nozzle was added. A lot of these smaller tugs don't have them and the way they are maneuvered, particularly on the river and in strong currents and in close quarters is simply amazing to watch. They do things with their boats that I suspect the average recreational boater could never even conceive as being possible.

But they're smart guys and in the commercial world where time is money they are not reluctant to add technology when it makes sense and if they can afford it, like Kort nozzles.

 

[markpierce]

The Internet is a wonderful thing.

Ducted propeller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Marin]

Marin said "Added to this is the high nature of the islands and coastal mountains, so communications can be spotty or non-existent unless one has satcom of some sort."

Actually, this is not true at all..

I wouldn't know about marine line- of-sight communications up the Passage north of Port McNeil.. I've never taken a boat up there, only a floatplane. So I'm going on what people in our club who have done the Passage over the last few years have told us in their presentations about their trips.

Weather info, they said, is pretty accessible in the places where you'd want it. But they said there are a lot of sections along the run, mainly in the two long reaches south of Prince Rupert and back in the islands and channels off the main route, particularly on the mainland side, where VHF connectivity is non-existent.

Have a problem in these areas, they said-- and one couple did-- and you are totally on your own unless another boat happens along or you have satcom.

 

[Larry M]

As you post from Trinidad having ventured for several years and what, tens of thousands of miles on your "unreliable" single engine?...

Thanks Kevin: I know, having an "unreliable" single sucks. We left SE AK in 2007 and arrived in Trinidad this past August for hurricane season and boat projects. Never had to be towed. The only time the engine quit was an air leak in the fuel system. It took 10 minutes to get us going. For us, we specifically went looking for a single when we bought Hobo and have no regrets.

Single or twins just drop the dock lines. It will ruin you in a good way.

 

[Anode]

Most of the river tugs around here have flanking rudders. For those times when just having a second engine isn't enough...