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Old 01-01-2013, 10:48 AM   #61
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ksanders said:
"Use a Naturally Aspirated engine Do they make these after 2012 anymore other than remans? And give up the improved emissions performance and nmpg on a new engine?
Use an engine with no belts. Alternator duties performed how?
Easier access with a single" Not on all singles, and Marin can service his twins on his GB 36. There are lots of easy access twins out there, not all are Bayliiner cramped.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:54 AM   #62
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Much lower MTTR is acheived through easier access to the engine for repairs. This makes repairs much faster when a failure occures.
I'd have to disagree there Kevin. I can sit upright on either side of either of my engines. I can get a wrench on everything very easily. Changing the injector oil on my stbd motor can get a little tight.

I really can't see how anyone can say a single engine is reliable, and yet a pair of those single engines would be LESS reliable.

At the very heart of every reliability engineering study I've seen is the degree of redundancy. Build a fault tree diagram for a boat's propulsion system and you'll find very few (if any) examples that could bring down a twin that would not bring down a single.

My fuel system is an example. I have dual tanks, two independent and redundant fuel filtration system with redundant lift pumps. Either tank can be used to fuel either engine (through redundant filtration).

This system is truly redundant. I would even like to have a day tank like Marin has to further increase my reliability model.

Are they worth the money? I dunno. I guess that needs to be seen at sale. I've never heard anyone walk on the boat and look below and say... "Oh bummer... I see you're stuck with two engines."
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:27 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
ksanders said:
"Use a Naturally Aspirated engine Do they make these after 2012 anymore other than remans? And give up the improved emissions performance and nmpg on a new engine?
Use an engine with no belts. Alternator duties performed how?
Easier access with a single" Not on all singles, and Marin can service his twins on his GB 36. There are lots of easy access twins out there, not all are Bayliiner cramped.
Here's a quote from Luggers website

Lugger's design philosophy has been it's strength from the beginning. Fresh and raw water pumps are gear-driven to eliminate belts. Most hoses and leak points have been engineered away.


To be honest I do not know is NA engines are available any more as new installs. What I do know is that something that does not exist cannot break. Using gear driven pumps removes the possibility of a belt failure causing an engine to be inoperable.

I do believe that the alternator on the lugger is still belt driven. An alternator loss will not stop an engine from running. It will stop battery charging which would require the use of your generator to keep up the batteries.

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I'd have to disagree there Kevin. I can sit upright on either side of either of my engines. I can get a wrench on everything very easily. Changing the injector oil on my stbd motor can get a little tight.

"
As far as the access issue, I can get to all four sides of both of my engines. I can reach every nut, bolt, hose, etc... That said, if my engine compartment only had one engine It would be easier to move around it. That ease would result in my being able to fix it faster. Thats all I was suggesting.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:34 PM   #64
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That said, if my engine compartment only had one engine It would be easier to move around it. That ease would result in my being able to fix it faster. Thats all I was suggesting.
I get that. I just wanted to clarify that on many old trawlers that's not the case though. I don't want people to assume that the second engine prevents maintenance or adds accessibility problems that would lead to poor maintenance or increased down time.

I don't think that would be the case with my design.

I get the cost argument, but the handling and redundancy more than offset any of that.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:43 PM   #65
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Belts???

What's wrong w belts Tom? Gotta change them once every several years ..... no problem. I've chose a belt driven seawater pump at repower and haven't been sorry. Belts are 7 years old. Look great and almost never need adjustment. I don't view belts as a weak link but technically most parts on an engine are.

But if one had twin engines the potential of two belts breaking that received proper maintenance is ridiculously and utterly remote.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:45 PM   #66
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But if one had twin engines the potential of two belts breaking that received proper maintenance is ridiculously and utterly remote.
Change them on opposing cycles and you can even further reduce the chances. I can definitely see how some would see it wouldn't be worth the extra expense, especially if buying new.

But aside for the initial investment, and some additional maintenance, I'd still opt to have two. It's just a personal preference at some point.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:09 PM   #67
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I really can't see how anyone can say a single engine is reliable, and yet a pair of those single engines would be LESS reliable.
I think that's a really good way of stating the issue.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:15 PM   #68
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I think that's a really good way of stating the issue.
I, grudgingly, agree. I will say, however, using the same logic, there must be considerably more room in the ER with a single than with "2 singles."
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:28 PM   #69
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I, grudgingly, agree. I will say, however, using the same logic, there must be considerably more room in the ER with a single than with "2 singles."
No argument there. But depending on the size of the boat, the type of engines, and the layout of the engine room two engines does not automatically equate to inaccessible. Particularly if the engines have an in-line cylinder arrangement as opposed to a Vee.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:14 PM   #70
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In some ways I have more room. My slip neighbor has a 45' CHB with a single. Since his motor is online the center line, he cannot move around it on each side with the same height I have in between mine. My batteries are all beneath the decking right along center line, his are off to each side. My genset is on center line as well. I have a good 48" or so between the engines. I'd have more room with a single, but not the same type of room I have now.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:38 PM   #71
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I don't have room for two engines. But it really doesn't matter because all I have is one.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:02 PM   #72
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Why are so many, so defensive? The last person posting isn't necessarily correct nor won the argument. There is no universally correct answer.

Had a belly-laughing party last night with Perla's friends on the Coot. Stayed in-berth, so number of engines was quite irrelevant.

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Old 01-01-2013, 06:10 PM   #73
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There is no universally correct answer.
Sure there is, Mark. If you have a power boat, you need power.

How's that?
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:16 PM   #74
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Sure there is, Mark. If you have a power boat, you need power.

How's that?
Marin, used no power except that shore-provided this New Year's eve.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:19 PM   #75
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To be honest I do not know is NA engines are available any more as new installs.
Up until a few years ago--- and perhaps still today--- Lugger offered a six-cylinder, NA inline diesel of 150 hp. IIRC it was based on a John Deere block and was a very popular engine for repowering boats originally fitted with engines like the FL120, FL135, etc.

A good friend of ours was for decades the head of the engineering department of Northern Lights/Lugger (formerly Alaska Diesel Electric), and he told us that this engine has been used in a number of Grand Banks re-powers in this area over the years.

As I've mentioned before, we have an idea on the back burner to have our boat completely overhauled up in BC in the not-too-distant future which would include a repower of the main engines and generator. At the time we put this idea together we decided to use this particular Lugger engine. Other projects keep getting in the way of this one so we have not kept up with the availability of this engine.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:34 PM   #76
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[QUOTE=ksanders;118631]

"Anybody thats ever experienced an engine failure was either glad they had twins, or wished they had twins."

This is the best statement I've come across in the single vs. twin debate. One would have to be silly to argue this one.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:44 PM   #77
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Mahal, I'm happy for you. Wish me luck with the Coot's single. My guardian angel appreciates acknowledgment (hint, hint).

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Old 01-01-2013, 06:55 PM   #78
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[QUOTE=mahal;123324]
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"Anybody thats ever experienced an engine failure was either glad they had twins, or wished they had twins."

This is the best statement I've come across in the single vs. twin debate. One would have to be silly to argue this one.
And you're likely to have twice the failure rate of any single engine since having twice the number of engines.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:59 PM   #79
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And you're likely to have twice the failure rate of any single engine since having twice the number of engines.
I think we already proved that this in reality is not correct in this or some other thread.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:04 PM   #80
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I think we already proved that this in reality is not correct in this or some other thread.
You are defying logic. If you have two engines, both will eventually fail. If I have one engine, it will eventually fail. So, you had two engines fail, and I had only one fail. I've never said or implied someone having two engines will necessarily have them both fail before someone's single engine.
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