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Old 01-16-2013, 06:42 PM   #621
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Man, I sure agree with that one! Nothing looks more ridiculous than seeing a huge post with a thousand lines of text or a series of photos that have little if anything to do with the subject other than a "me too me too' value quoted in its entirety only to be followed by a single line ...
i8s that sorta like the guy with the giant engine avatar that dosent talk about engines?
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:44 PM   #622
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#10: Theft of Equipment

Some jealous single owner stole an engine from a twin driver.

#9 Claim: Theft of Boat (with chances of boat being stolen box.)

Someone wanted a twin so bad they couldn't help themselves


#8: Lightning

Act of God. Singles aren't worthy.

#7: Grounding

Like beached whales. Single owners had no other choice than to cast their vessels on the beach.

# 6: Collisions

Obvious lack of maneuverability on the part of a single owner whose bow thruster over-heated. This wouldn't have happened in a twin.

#5: Wind and Weather

Single owners out there in weather beyond the capability of a single and with no redundancy.

#4: Fire and Explosion

Sabotage. Single owner suspected of getting tired of hearing how cool twins are.

# 3: Sinking

Forced to operate their singles well beyond failure, catastrophic casualty resulting in loss of vessel.

# 2 Claim: Striking Submerged Objects

Overconfident in their ability to dodge dead heads and skip over submerged objects with their well-guarded keels and props.


# 1 Claim: Hurricane Damage

A twin would weather the storm at sea or at anchorage. The single lost at the dock.
Best post of the day!
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:01 PM   #623
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....thanks, and your right, but the fact is i have had lots of boats becuse i have yet to find one that will do everything i want a boat to do.
I'm looking forward to just putting around watching the sun come up and then set over and over as i travel from point A to point B in a vessel that takes three days to do what i am used to doing in one or less.

A good survey, how can i be sure the guy i find can do a good survey? That is a bit scary.
- Check with BBB, most "good" surveyors are listed.
- Check their length of time in business... less than 7 yrs and I recommend not experienced enough.
- Ask the surveyor for minimum of 3 references that have employed him/her within last couple years and connect with at least two of them to get their report on work performed.
- Ask surveyor for list of their documentation / licenses / experiences regarding marine background.
- Make sure surveyor will be pleased to have you at survey and then ask as many questions as you feel pertinent... they work for you! If surveyor would rather be alone... move on to another!
- Keep clip board handy during survey and jots notes.
- Be sure to have two surveys – one for the boat itself and a marine mechanic to survey and certify all mechanical equipment.

Then if all works out and you purchase - GO PLAY!!
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:26 PM   #624
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i8s that sorta like the guy with the giant engine avatar that dosent talk about engines?
New here are ya?
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:57 PM   #625
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New here are ya?
yep...I'm sorry, couldnt help the comment
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:01 PM   #626
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- Check with BBB, most "good" surveyors are listed.
- Check their length of time in business... less than 7 yrs and I recommend not experienced enough.
- Ask the surveyor for minimum of 3 references that have employed him/her within last couple years and connect with at least two of them to get their report on work performed.
- Ask surveyor for list of their documentation / licenses / experiences regarding marine background.
- Make sure surveyor will be pleased to have you at survey and then ask as many questions as you feel pertinent... they work for you! If surveyor would rather be alone... move on to another!
- Keep clip board handy during survey and jots notes.
- Be sure to have two surveys – one for the boat itself and a marine mechanic to survey and certify all mechanical equipment.

Then if all works out and you purchase - GO PLAY!!
ahg, great, thank you sir. I never thought of two surveys i was under the impresion one was enough but i can certainly understand the need for a mechanical expert now that you pointed it out. Gonna copy your advice for reference while i search. Thanks

As a matter of fact the mechanical issues are of more concern to me as i am sure the rest of the boat is sound. Still gonna do both as I'm no expert
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:10 PM   #627
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A good survey, how can i be sure the guy i find can do a good survey? That is a bit scary.
Short answer, you can`t. Even a good surveyor can/will miss something. The owner had lots of time to try to disguise defects. You are quite likely to find one or more issues you`d hope the surveyor would have found. I`d expect your past experience would tell you that, unless you are very lucky.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:18 PM   #628
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Short answer, you can`t. Even a good surveyor can/will miss something. The owner had lots of time to try to disguise defects. You are quite likely to find one or more issues you`d hope the surveyor would have found. I`d expect your past experience would tell you that, unless you are very lucky.
yep, thats for sure. I sold a boat once to a guy that after the deal was done he asked me if there were anythings about the boat that he should know. He said it was ok, he wouldnt hold anything against me but that it would make it much easier for him if i tell him the vesselspeculararities now so he can address the issues before taking to the water and finding them out. When he asked me this it kinda took me by surprise. There was nothing i could tell him and we are still friends to this day. Thatwas back in 1986, i sold him a bayliner........he ran the ....outa that boat untill it was junked in 2001
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:57 PM   #629
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.... i was under the impresion one was enough...
There are surveyors who say they are experts at both hull and engine surveys. But I think it's wiser to have individuals who speciliaze in one or the other for a pre-purchase survey.

When we went to Alameda to check out the boat we ultimately bought we started about 6:00 am and did our own very thorough inspection and systems testing. Then we took the boat out onto the bay for a sea trial in the course of which we took the boat to a boatyard next to a Navy base.

The engine surveyor met us there and conducted his engine survey for a couple of hours. Then the hull surveyor showed up and did the first part of his survey with the boat in the water, then the boat was pulled out and blocked, and the hull surveyor did the second half of his survey.

The hull surveyor went home about 10:00 pm after which we discussed the pros and cons of buying the boat.

So if you can find a good hull surveyor familiar witht he make and model of the boat you're interested in and a good engine surveyor who's very familiar with the type of engine(s) in the boat, I think that's the best way to go even though it may cost more.

Now for our insurance surveys, we hire just one surveyor, a hull and systems specialist, and he does an abreviated survey aimed at satisfying the issues the insurance companies are interested in. If in the course of the survey he sees other things he thinks we should address he writes them down for us but he does not put them on his official survey form.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:19 PM   #630
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Now for our insurance surveys, we hire just one surveyor, a hull and systems specialist, and he does an abreviated survey aimed at satisfying the issues the insurance companies are interested in. If in the course of the survey he sees other things he thinks we should address he writes them down for us know but he does not put them on his official survey form.
That's good info for boat owners to to keep in mind!
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:07 PM   #631
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There are surveyors who say they are experts at both hull and engine surveys. But I think it's wiser to have individuals who speciliaze in one or the other for a pre-purchase survey.

When we went to Alameda to check out the boat we ultimately bought we started about 6:00 am and did our own very thorough inspection and systems testing. Then we took the boat out onto the bay for a sea trial in the course of which we took the boat to a boatyard next to a Navy base.

The engine surveyor met us there and conducted his engine survey for a couple of hours. Then the hull surveyor showed up and did the first part of his survey with the boat in the water, then the boat was pulled out and blocked, and the hull surveyor did the second half of his survey.

The hull surveyor went home about 10:00 pm after which we discussed the pros and cons of buying the boat.

So if you can find a good hull surveyor familiar witht he make and model of the boat you're interested in and a good engine surveyor who's very familiar with the type of engine(s) in the boat, I think that's the best way to go even though it may cost more.

Now for our insurance surveys, we hire just one surveyor, a hull and systems specialist, and he does an abreviated survey aimed at satisfying the issues the insurance companies are interested in. If in the course of the survey he sees other things he thinks we should address he writes them down for us but he does not put them on his official survey form.
interesting. So your initial survey must have taken all day? I would want a good mechanic to do the engine survey. So there are specialists that just do engine system surveys? I didn't know that. In Alameda you could find everything and i guess san pedro should be almost as good. Tomorrow i'm gonna try locating some.
Thanks Marin, everyone, for sharing your experiances and knowledge
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:14 PM   #632
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That's good info for boat owners to to keep in mind!
yeah. i was thinking of one survey fits all just shows how dumb i am huh? golly gee, I be dumber even than i thought i was regarding surveys not to mention single vs. twins<smile>
I mean surveys issue is simple compared to this single vs. twins issue. I mean we have almost written a book on the subject here in this forum and wer'e no closer to the answer than with were with the very first post.....
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:26 PM   #633
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interesting. So your initial survey must have taken all day?
The pre-purchase engine/generator survey took about two hours. The pre-purchase hull/systems survey took about eight hours plus the time it took to pull and block the boat in the Travelift partway through it.

The insurance survey takes way less time than this.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:47 PM   #634
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If you are using say a mechanical and a general/hull surveyor, start with the one in whose area you think there might be a deal breaker, if it happens you may be able to save some $ by calling off surveyor 2.
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:27 AM   #635
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Keep in mind that the more the posts, the more disk space needed on the server, and the more it costs to support this forum.
This isn't totally true. character strings don't take much space at all. ASCII characters are very small. Even an epic Marin post is a pretty small disk footprint. Even the GUI of forum software is pretty effecient and relatively small. There is a reason for this. The forum service providers I have dealt with in the past have usually charged by bandwidth (i.e. number of hits and amount of data transferred). That equates to, the more hits and the more members are the driving factors of operating expenses of forums. Even with a ton of members, costs are barely offset by ad revenue. Especially in the early stages (like we are). the shear number of ads and amount of total available space on the web has diluted the pool so far that having ads on your site is not that profitable anymore.

I haven't owned a forum in a while. Things may have changed. Also, Janet and Andy, being venture capitalists in forum providing, may have worked out a business plan that CAN run a profitable operation. However, I suspect that, while it will never allow them to go hungry, it's unlikely to put them on Easy Street.

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Old 01-17-2013, 09:10 PM   #636
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This isn't totally true. character strings don't take much space at all. ASCII characters are very small. Even an epic Marin post is a pretty small disk footprint. Even the GUI of forum software is pretty effecient and relatively small. There is a reason for this. The forum service providers I have dealt with in the past have usually charged by bandwidth (i.e. number of hits and amount of data transferred). That equates to, the more hits and the more members are the driving factors of operating expenses of forums. Even with a ton of members, costs are barely offset by ad revenue. Especially in the early stages (like we are). the shear number of ads and amount of total available space on the web has diluted the pool so far that having ads on your site is not that profitable anymore.

I haven't owned a forum in a while. Things may have changed. Also, Janet and Andy, being venture capitalists in forum providing, may have worked out a business plan that CAN run a profitable operation. However, I suspect that, while it will never allow them to go hungry, it's unlikely to put them on Easy Street.

Tom-
Tom, so are you telling us to shut up or the forum will go bust?
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:42 PM   #637
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That's crazy. Every time you visit a page that has an ad on the side, it generates income. Every time.

If you really wanna generate some income, click an ad that intrigues you and look around on the page that comes up. "Click-Thru" ad revenue can add up pretty quickly.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:51 PM   #638
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That's crazy. Every time you visit a page that has an ad on the side, it generates income. Every time.

If you really wanna generate some income, click an ad that intrigues you and look around on the page that comes up. "Click-Thru" ad revenue can add up pretty quickly.
thats what i thought. I also hate those adds cause they feel like blood suckers. But i guess if they support good things like this forum they are good
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:10 PM   #639
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This isn't totally true. character strings don't take much space at all. ASCII characters are very small. Even an epic Marin post is a pretty small disk footprint. Even the GUI of forum software is pretty effecient and relatively small. There is a reason for this. The forum service providers I have dealt with in the past have usually charged by bandwidth (i.e. number of hits and amount of data transferred). That equates to, the more hits and the more members are the driving factors of operating expenses of forums. Even with a ton of members, costs are barely offset by ad revenue. Especially in the early stages (like we are). the shear number of ads and amount of total available space on the web has diluted the pool so far that having ads on your site is not that profitable anymore.

I haven't owned a forum in a while. Things may have changed. Also, Janet and Andy, being venture capitalists in forum providing, may have worked out a business plan that CAN run a profitable operation. However, I suspect that, while it will never allow them to go hungry, it's unlikely to put them on Easy Street.

Tom-
Tom

I sure don’t know squat bout forum cost, maintenance, revenue flow, bandwidth etc... But, being a business person dealing along other biz lines I do “see” the following regarding this forum:

- Majority of contributors here are old enough to be pretty well set in their ways and are not the most easily sold to by flashing pop-up ads
- Seems there are approx <75 viewers/contributors at any given time, and you can bet most are repeats... day after day... who are fairly oblivious to the ads
- Doubtful that the pop-up “flash” ads do much more than annoy the vast majority of contributors/viewers
- “Trawlers” aren't a topic that tends to draw thousands into contributing to this forum or simply viewing its posts, and, those that do are usually not exactly youngsters nor here to purchase anything... this forum seems not to much of a growth business
.
Soooo, that said - - > I have no idea how the advertisers here can feel justified in placing ad money toward this forum??

Maybe you could enlighten me!

Thanks, Happy Boater - - > Art
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:18 PM   #640
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thats what i thought. I also hate those adds cause they feel like blood suckers. But i guess if they support good things like this forum they are good
They can be quite the money maker too. If something catches your eye, do the forum a favor. They are forbidden to direct folks to click on anything, but if something looks interesting feel free to to click thru. It'd shock ya what it can add up to on a larger forum.
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