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Old 01-15-2013, 01:24 PM   #561
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Risk of damage to underwater gear, (noted by Boat US as a factor that can elevate a "struck submerged object claim" to a "sinking claim") is going to be higher with a greater amount of less protected running gear in the water. I struggle to think of a single engine trawler that even has a strut of any sort. So there are some specific risks that are going to be higher with twins, but you might be more likely to use your towing coverage with a single.
Just from my experience, but its not the twin verses single that plays into this game as much as it the speed of the impact. Our trawlers will usualy have a tough time hitting ten knots for a cruise speed. At 7 knots there is a good chance a hit will result in minimal damage. But take that hit or log strike at 12 , 15 , 20 knots its a new game with a ton of damage fast. Compared to grounding while on anchor. Hitting a windshield at 20 knots can be real painfull. ( personal injury )
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:03 PM   #562
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Yeah. The insurance claims data is, I suspect, inclusive of all boat types, outboards, inboards, in-out, jet drive, pod drive, etc. And OFB is right, faster speeds make some of those "accidents" more damaging and more costly than an accident at 10-12 mph (8kts), that's probably top end for trawler style boats, than someone running 30+ mph in a ski boat.
Notice the boat name?

A trawler hit that a WOT and you'd be looking at more damage to your pride than to the boat.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:11 PM   #563
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Pretty good somesailor...just as funny as your reasoning that twins are more reliable....
Twins are NOT more reliable per individual engine than a single... but... if I were to play the role of an ins rating actuary on this topic... redundancy is a strong factor and I'd have to rate twins 66% (not 100%) more reliable than a single (when rated as two running engines compared to one running engine). Said reliability factor would be solely for capability to have boat remain under power even though there was a failed engine that became inoperative.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:16 PM   #564
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Yeah. The insurance claims data is, I suspect, inclusive of all boat types, outboards, inboards, in-out, jet drive, pod drive, etc. And OFB is right, faster speeds make some of those "accidents" more damaging and more costly than an accident at 10-12 mph (8kts), that's probably top end for trawler style boats, than someone running 30+ mph in a ski boat.
Notice the boat name?

A trawler hit that a WOT and you'd be looking at more damage to your pride than to the boat.
10-12 mph isn't "8-knots". 8 knots is a very specific speed, (9.1 mph). By the time you hit 12 mph you're closing in on 11-knots (12.6 mph). One of the reasons that (some) people rig a trawler with an "extra" (me bad) engine is to be able to cruise in the low teens. The odds of most single engine trawlers hitting something at 11, 12, or 13 knots are near zero- few cruise that fast. The odds of a twin engine trawler hitting something at 11, 12, or 13 knots are much higher. Some well respected trawler builders market the speed potential of twin engine, semi-displacement set ups pretty heavily.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:16 PM   #565
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but... if I were to play the role of an ins rating actuary on this topic... redundancy is a strong factor and I'd have to rate twins 66% (not 100%) more reliable than a single (when rated as two running engines compared to one running engine). Said reliability factor would be solely for capability to have boat remain under power even though there was a failed engine that became inoperative.
But an engine failure isn't going to be cause for an insurance claim. At least it shouldn't be. And then extending that, would any damage that resulted from a lack of proper maintenance (on a single engine or a twin engine) be cause to deny claims from any damage that resulted from owner/operator neglect/negligence?
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:26 PM   #566
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Greetings,
Aren't insurance values "suggested" by the surveyor? If so, powerplant(s) would be factored into the "value". I'm sure the insc. companies refer to NADA or similar and combined with surveyor input, determine a "value"....#546...This has gotta be a record of some sort. Just think you can tell your grandchildren you were a part of this.
That is for the vessels value but my question was related to safety. If twins are more dependable then you would think they would have fewer insurance claims resulting from breakdowns in which the vessel is damaged. Less chance of ending on the rocks right? Fewer claims i would think would result in lower premiums??
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:32 PM   #567
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But an engine failure isn't going to be cause for an insurance claim. At least it shouldn't be. And then extending that, would any damage that resulted from a lack of proper maintenance (on a single engine or a twin engine) be cause to deny claims from any damage that resulted from owner/operator neglect/negligence?
With a single engine caput it seems it could create much cause for one or more claims, i.e. tow costs / boat damage due to current movement that creates grounding in sand/mud/rocks / person or gear lost overboard due to sudden inclement weather and taller waves prior to tow / inability to move out of way from oncoming vessels (especially in fog). With a twin that enabled boat to stay under control and made it to port on remaining engine probably much less chance for ins claim!
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:44 PM   #568
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With a single engine caput it seems it could create much cause for one or more claims, i.e. tow costs / boat damage due to current movement that creates grounding in sand/mud/rocks / person or gear lost overboard due to sudden inclement weather and taller waves prior to tow / inability to move out of way from oncoming vessels (especially in fog). With a twin that enabled boat to stay under control and made it to port on remaining engine probably much less chance for ins claim!
I dont know bout that. Watching some try and manouver there twin engined vessel on one engine can be cause for concern!
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:52 PM   #569
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With a single engine caput it seems it could create much cause for one or more claims, i.e. tow costs / boat damage due to current movement that creates grounding in sand/mud/rocks / person or gear lost overboard due to sudden inclement weather and taller waves prior to tow / inability to move out of way from oncoming vessels (especially in fog). With a twin that enabled boat to stay under control and made it to port on remaining engine probably much less chance for ins claim!
so the insurance should be cheaper right?

However, it isn't. That indicates to me that insurance companies see little diference in the claims from singles or twins. That may be because its easier and less costly to service a single than a twin resulting in more breakdowns avoided so they come out equal as far as claims go.

2cents...or maybe no sense
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:54 PM   #570
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Greetings,
One factor contributing to overall damage is not only speed but weight. A 30T vessel hitting a fixed object is going to suffer substantially MORE damage than a 3T vessel under the same circumstances I would think. No?
Mr. Art. The 66% figure you quoted in post #563 is TOTAL hokum! Where on earth did you come up with that fictitious number? Everyone KNOWS (It's even in the bible!) it's 68.31412%! Talk about being a so-called expert! Have you absorbed nothing from this site? By golly, just tell your insurance company that you've got your granpaw's 2 HP get home engine you can strap onto your swim platform in mere hours.


Of all the nerve!!!!
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:56 PM   #571
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I dont know bout that. Watching some try and manouver there twin engined vessel on one engine can be cause for concern!
your right, didnt think of that, they sure don't track right on one engine.

You know what, a person that preferrs a twin engine boat over a single is like the guy that wears a belt and suspenders!...Me, i don't do belts or suspenders....
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:00 PM   #572
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This is post 572.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:04 PM   #573
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Twins are NOT more reliable per individual engine than a single... but... if I were to play the role of an ins rating actuary on this topic... redundancy is a strong factor and I'd have to rate twins 66% (not 100%) more reliable than a single (when rated as two running engines compared to one running engine). Said reliability factor would be solely for capability to have boat remain under power even though there was a failed engine that became inoperative.
so then a defever with a get home motor you would consider a twin?
and then what about a dinghy equipped vessel with a 30-40hp engine? The dinghy has enough power to tow the vessel right? So that is like a big get home motor and more useful that an extra giant sized power system providing ballast down in the engine room..............Geezz.....do i gotta do all the thinkin around here?....

That comment ought to be good for another 500 or so
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:09 PM   #574
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Greetings,
Mr. 45. Oh ya, no belt OR suspenders huh? Just wait until your shorts fall down about your ankles in front of the church choir ladies when your waist button pops off. Happened to me only three times and I don't go to that church any more.....Boy o boy did I change MY tune! Now I make sure I wear under drawers...
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:23 PM   #575
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Greetings,
One factor contributing to overall damage is not only speed but weight. A 30T vessel hitting a fixed object is going to suffer substantially MORE damage than a 3T vessel under the same circumstances I would think. No?
Mr. Art. The 66% figure you quoted in post #563 is TOTAL hokum! Where on earth did you come up with that fictitious number? Everyone KNOWS (It's even in the bible!) it's 68.31412%! Talk about being a so-called expert! Have you absorbed nothing from this site? By golly, just tell your insurance company that you've got your granpaw's 2 HP get home engine you can strap onto your swim platform in mere hours.


Of all the nerve!!!!
Nerve!?!? - Now you're getting pretty personal here, RT!

1. Dat’s no me grandpa’s "British Seagull" o/b engine... matter o’ fact it looks darn similar to my first one; a 1.7 hp "Neptune MightyMite" o/b – circa 1959. Bought with my own earned $$$ from working on dad’s boat and cutten’ grass in summer as well as shoveln’ NY winter’s snow for neighbors. Brand-New she cost me $77 – I well remember forking over my hard earned cash. Clamped her onto a 6’6” “Pixie” brand FG dink we had. That little dink would go like hell with just me... probably near 6 knots at WOT!

2. I just didn't want to confuse anything my adding the .333333333333333...% to 66% to make it a real 2/3 safer twin to single ins ratio! I know bout’ da Bible... and what 666 actually stands for (btw, da real meaning and number has been condensed/altered/screwed-up by modern day biblical "scholars").

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Old 01-15-2013, 03:24 PM   #576
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Pretty good somesailor...just as funny as your reasoning that twins are more reliable....
Aren't they just twice as reliable?

If a single never fails... a pair of singles with never fail twice as long.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:27 PM   #577
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The odds of a twin engine trawler hitting something at 11, 12, or 13 knots are much higher.
The odds of me hitting ANYTHING (including 13 knots) at 13 knots are infinitesimal.

My boat won't DO 13 knots.


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Old 01-15-2013, 03:33 PM   #578
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Greetings,
Mr. Art. Nope, NOT a Seagull, she's a Koban.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:36 PM   #579
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so then a defever with a get home motor you would consider a twin?
and then what about a dinghy equipped vessel with a 30-40hp engine? The dinghy has enough power to tow the vessel right? So that is like a big get home motor and more useful that an extra giant sized power system providing ballast down in the engine room..............Geezz.....do i gotta do all the thinkin around here?....

That comment ought to be good for another 500 or so
Hey - Here's one of the 500 extra posts!

Come to think of it... I'm a diver and have sets of fins/mask/snorkel aboard. That means I could take a line clamped in my teeth and with hands on small boogie board pull our Tolly to safety! That means: with twin screws, a 50 hp Johnson o/b on our tow behind Crestliner runabout and my swimming capabilities the ins co should pay us an annual premium-rebate... Iíd settle for, oh lets say, $500. BTW, for extra safety aboard Linda is great swimmer too!
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:40 PM   #580
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Greetings,
Mr. Art. Nope, NOT a Seagull, she's a Koban.
RT - Grandpa had a Seagull... just relating to my past reality. I've only seen a couple Kobans, such as you name that o/b. Does somewhat resemble Seagulls and Neptunes
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