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Old 01-11-2013, 02:20 PM   #501
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Greetings,
I'm aiming for 666....Good on ya Mr. Mark-500.
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:50 PM   #502
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Like most all other males, I've only one "you know what."
One boat?
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:37 PM   #503
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#498-Don't those foily things have brakes? And, which gets you off the rocks better, a single or twins?
Most of the time two can get the rocks off faster ...
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:56 PM   #504
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What's the most posts ever on a Trawler Forum thread? Anyone know?

At this rate, post #666 will arrive in a day or two. I might have to unsubscribe to this one. It's clogging my email inbox!
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:04 PM   #505
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And absolutely the most amazing thing is that we're still on topic!!!
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:48 PM   #506
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And absolutely the most amazing thing is that we're still on topic!!!
Yea - But single, twin and even more screws have been sometimes discussed with rather ribald posts! On topic sort a !!

A screw or screws can be and has been alluded to in more than one way!
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:50 PM   #507
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Greetings,
Mr. Art. To paraphrase the bard...A topic by any other name would smell (as sweet)
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:55 PM   #508
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Greetings,
Mr. mahal. Challenge this statement? Isn't that what we've been doing these for 494 posts?
I was looking for a direct challenge to the statement like: I wouldn't wish I had twins if I had an engine failure at sea because I want to use my $1500 sea anchor.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:02 PM   #509
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I was looking for a direct challenge to the statement like: I wouldn't wish I had twins if I had an engine failure at sea because I want to use my $1500 sea anchor.
That kind of post will get serious answers.....
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:07 PM   #510
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"per wikipedia...
2 ◊ General Electric LM2500 gas turbines, generating 47,500 shp
1 ◊ SEMT Pielstick Diesel engine, generating 8,800 shp
1 ◊ Royal de Schelde cross-connect gearbox
2 ◊ Escher Wyss controllable pitch propellers"

OK, I stand corrected. Walking around in the ER of the Calgary, it seemed like walking past a pair of diesels and down both sides of one gas turbine. It was a while ago, and the Calgary had just returned from its tour of duty in the Persian Gulf during the early part of the Afgan war. Hard to believe those boats are now passing their "mid life refit" I wonder how many engine hours they go between refits?
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:06 AM   #511
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lets see, what are the pluses for twins? with luck if one breaks down the other will get you home????? any others???...oh yes, the broken down engine can be used for parts for the one running. That is assuming since it is the same age that the same part dosent crap out on it as well.

So you can hang with the 'don't get a thruster crowd'?
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:22 AM   #512
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And absolutely the most amazing thing is that we're still on topic!!!
It's been a wandering path though...
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:31 AM   #513
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Engine failures occur at least twice as often with twins compared to single engines. Highly-exposed shafts and propellers also increase the odds of failure. Fortunately those who are lucky enough to have a reliable and well looked after twin setup can motor along to their destination while those with singles and without a get home setup are dead in the water - unless of course psneeld is nearby with his onboard warehouse to provide parts or will be gracious enough to tow you in.
See, all this needed was two posts, how the heck did we get to 500+?
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:08 AM   #514
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Am I wrong?
I'm beginning to think I have a better chance of dying in my single than the drive to the boat....?
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:44 AM   #515
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Tom, Mark,
My post #2 this thread.
Mark wrote;
"Engine failures occur at least twice as often with twins compared to single engines. Highly-exposed shafts and propellers also increase the odds of failure." Yes but when one fails you usually have one left. One engine pushing the boat smartly along. Actually I think more than twice as often but the odds of getting home on one's own power are still FAR better.
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:23 PM   #516
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Yes but when one fails you usually have one left.
You will always have one left... unless you're talking about a single point of failure common to twins or singles (mutually probable). Therefore, you would leave those out of any statistical comparison (wouldn't matter if you had 10 engines)

That being said... lose AN engine on a single and you are in harms way... lose AN engine in a twin and you have have safe steerage, power and propulsion to get you to anchor, safe harbor or home.

The odds of coming home on the bitter end of a tow line are exponentially less with twins over a single. It's a mathematical certainty.

It's an exercise in risk analysis. Give me the failure rates of any group single point failures (single events) and I can show you the odds of any two happening at once (or one during another). No matter how many they would be astronomical.

Engine shut-down - Oil related - 1:10000 hours
Engine shut-down - Fuel system related - 1:1000 hours
Engine shut-down - Over temp - 1:10000 hours
Tranny failure - linkage - 1:10000 hours
Tranny failure - Catastrophic - 1:100000 hours

... etc

You'll soon see that there are VERY FEW things that would take both plants offline simultaneously. The more independent failures you can think up, the more distant the chance of them occurring mutually.

ie: The odds of losing your 2nd engine decrease to near zero when you lost your first to an independent event. (statistically speaking)

That should fuel the fire for another 10 posts...
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:35 PM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeSailor View Post
You will always have one left... unless you're talking about a single point of failure common to twins or singles (mutually probable). Therefore, you would leave those out of any statistical comparison (wouldn't matter if you had 10 engines)

That being said... lose AN engine on a single and you are in harms way... lose AN engine in a twin and you have have safe steerage, power and propulsion to get you to anchor, safe harbor or home.

The odds of coming home on the bitter end of a tow line are exponentially less with twins over a single. It's a mathematical certainty.

It's an exercise in risk analysis. Give me the failure rates of any group single point failures (single events) and I can show you the odds of any two happening at once (or one during another). No matter how many they would be astronomical.

Engine shut-down - Oil related - 1:10000 hours
Engine shut-down - Fuel system related - 1:1000 hours
Engine shut-down - Over temp - 1:10000 hours
Tranny failure - linkage - 1:10000 hours
Tranny failure - Catastrophic - 1:100000 hours

... etc

You'll soon see that there are VERY FEW things that would take both plants offline simultaneously. The more independent failures you can think up, the more distant the chance of them occurring mutually.

ie: The odds of losing your 2nd engine decrease to near zero when you lost your first to an independent event. (statistically speaking)

That should fuel the fire for another 10 posts...
Only a tiny percentage of the time are you in harms way if you loose an engine and even then most problems with single engines don't shut you down immediately (unless you're too oblivious to see the warning signs...many here have posted they have boated a lifetime and never had a complete failure of an engine while underway...me included...

So ....now what????
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:03 PM   #518
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OK... so then we're talking about an infinitely smaller set of statistical probabilities. That being said... if you're talking about reliability, the numbers CAN be described. BoatUS makes it's living towing boats in. List the things that got them in that situation, the probability of that happening, and you have a model that can be built.

For example: One common one; "Ran the boat out of fuel"

It happens (not to many skilled skippers... but it happens). Call it a 1 in 100,000 hours of operation occurrence and roll those dice 100,000 times. The odds are describable and predictable. Now... roll a new set of dice on a problem that occurs equally infrequently (but still mutually exclusive), say:

For example: "Fouled a prop"

The odds of running out of fuel... and then fouling the OTHER prop... are exponentially improbable. This only expands the model when you add another independent power system.

The business model of BoatUS speaks for itself. It's a very profitable business. Stuff happens out there.
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:12 PM   #519
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That being said... lose AN engine on a single and you are in harms way... lose AN engine in a twin and you have have safe steerage, power and propulsion to get you to anchor, safe harbor or home.
Oh I don't know about that. There are a lot of boats here with 9.9 high thrust outboards mounted on the swim step to use for trolling salmon. "We came home on the kicker" is a phrase I've heard a few times.
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:30 PM   #520
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...most problems with single engines don't shut you down immediately....
Well, from our own experience and from what I have heard on the VHF the single most common thing causing an engine shutdown outside of simply running out of fuel is a cooling problem. This can be raw water system problems--- intake blockage, impeller failure, exhaust hose failure, etc.--- or engine coolant problem-- coolant pump gasket failure, seal failure, bearing failure, etc.

And when these occur, the engine is more often than not done for the day. Yes, a raw water pump can be replaced, an impeller replaced, a coolant pump replaced. But this takes time, tools, and the part, and depending on the conditions may not be something the boater wants to do at that particular moment. A rope tow may be the more viable alternative unless he has a second engine to finish the trip with.

Broken belts, split hoses, and so on are relatively easy to fix (unless one has an FL120 without a spare belt pre-threaded through the cooling hose).

But while I know it happens, we don't know anyone who's had a belt break or a hose split open. But we do know a surprising number of people with singles and twins who have had to shut an engine down to a cooling problem, and it stayed shut down until they got home and had the problem repaired.

In all these cases the ones with one engine finished their run on a rope, the ones with two engines simply kept going.
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